Teacher Salary

[Jessica]

I am looking for differnt opinions about teacher salaries. how can I get a copy or information about this. I also need the requirments to become a teacher. What were you asked in order to become a teacher.

[Unregistered]

I am looking for differnt opinions about teacher salaries. how can I get a copy or information about this. I also need the requirments to become a teacher. What were you asked in order to become a teacher.
teachers earn way to little!!

[Unregistered]

Teaching is not a profession, it's a commitment they say that's why a teacher's salary is very low! But we need to survive too . . .

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

There is a fine line between being dedicated and being a schmuck; teachers walk that fine line.

Tenure is one of the biggest culprits. Anyone that is a fan of tenure shouldn't complain about low salaries, since they have traded money for job security. This is a tremendous boon to unskilled teachers, but a lousy deal for talented teachers.

[Unregistered]

Jessica, each state has a web site with educational requirements. for example in Missouri it is www.dese.mo.gov/ The initials dese stand for department of secondary and elementary education. If you love helping people you'll love teaching. The pay is not as high as a doctor or nurse but you are not on call on Holidays and weekends, and your summers are off. It is the reward of knowing you have touched the lives of so many people that will make a difference. Go for it.///

[KatieBee]

There are lots of articles you can find using google or yahoo about what has been said about this nationally recently, which you might find helpful.

[Unregistered]

Why do we have to be payed so little? Come on I've been teaching for 7 years, and still get a bum salary, we have needs.

[KatieBee]

There have been a lot of articles around this lately. I think it's criminal also. Look at professional athletes and the like! So frustrating...

[Unregistered elizabeth]

I've been teaching 25 years. The big problem I see with teacher salary is that there is little increase over the years. In my district, a 25 - 30 year teacher makes $15,000. more than a first year teacher. My daughter, who has a B.S. degree in business, has been in the corporate world for 4 years and she already makes $12,000. more than when she started.....plus gets $5000.00 and $6000.00 bonuses each year. I'm so happy that she did not go into teaching. Although I love teaching, had I realized the above when I was her age, I would have chosen a different path. More experienced teachers are just not compensated for their wisdom, and experience.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

More experienced teachers are just not compensated for their wisdom, and experience.

You're equating "experience" with "quality." In my experience, the veterans are often the poorest teachers on campus. In your opinion, where does quality fit into the picture? Should the best teachers be paid more?

[Unregistered]

Not everyone who posts here is a teacher. Some are administrators who hate tenure and love to spread the propaganda about experience not the same as qualified. The politicos and short sighted admins who want to squeeze "productivity" to the very edge won't be satisfied until even the most dedicated among us are driven out by Wal-Mart type wage slaves. Go to work in a union shop and the minute you get tenure fight for teacher rights and pay. Never work without tenure. The bullies they put in charge of the schools make it miserable enough!

[B Just]

Not everyone who posts here is a teacher. Some are administrators who hate tenure and love to spread the propaganda about experience not the same as qualified. The politicos and short sighted admins who want to squeeze "productivity" to the very edge won't be satisfied until even the most dedicated among us are driven out by Wal-Mart type wage slaves. Go to work in a union shop and the minute you get tenure fight for teacher rights and pay. Never work without tenure. The bullies they put in charge of the schools make it miserable enough!

[Babe in Teaching]

I am shocked from reading some of the posts. I used to be a pharmacist working in one of the most profitable drug store chains in the country making 3 times as much as a teacher with a bachelors degree. However, after all the money I made in the world, I still was not satisfied in my career. My workload was much heavier than any teacher's ( try filling 300 prescriptions in one shift standing on your feet for 8 hours, listening to people complain about their insurance is too high, or doctors who are too busy to consult with you about a patient's prescription). As a graduate student working on my third professional degree, it is upsetting to read comments from educators who are responsible for the education of our children. It saddens me that the focus of some teachers is fueled by money motivation. In other words, perhaps, some of you teachers will be more intentional teachers if you made as much as the average pharmacist ($95,000) and just might actually care about our students' futures. The reason why I chose teaching as a profession has nothing to do with how much money I would make. I love to teach because I love children- I would teach for free. The concern I have for the teachers of 2005 new or tenured is whether you are teaching to help a student achieve higher education or just in it for the money. If you never made more than what you are making at this moment, will you punish your students by not teaching to your fullest potential? In other words, are you teachers intentional teachers or ineffective teachers? An intentional teacher is a teacher whose sole purpose is to properly educate students.

[b just]

You're right. Teaching should be a pastime for the moneyed few who can afford to work for free.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Never work without tenure.

Do you extend the same logic to roofers, landscapers, and mechanics? Suppose someone told you that they would roof your house only if you were not allowed to fire them. Would you hire such a roofer?

As far as wage slavery goes, the best way to lower wages is to promise security instead. If I know a worker is unwilling to leave because they have tenure, why would I give this worker a raise?

By the way, I am not and have never been an administrator.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Not everyone who posts here is a teacher. Some are administrators who hate tenure and love to spread the propaganda about experience not the same as qualified.

I think everyone acknowledges that being experienced is not the same as being qualified, so why are you calling it propaganda? Do you espouse to the philosophy that experience and quality are the same?

Another question: Should incompetence be grounds for dismissal?

[Unregistered]

Lisa, I take offense to your comment that veteran teachers are the poorest teachers. I don't know where you come from but I have been teaching for 22 years and can honestly say that I am probably just as dedicatd now as I was when I started or perhaps even more so.
The biggest problem in teaching is parents not being held accountable for the actions of their children. Call a parent to tell them about child's poor behavior and their response all too often, is "What did you do to him/her?"
Our mayor and chancellor have no clue as to what it's really like in a classroom ... it's harder than ever to deal with disruptive children. They threaten you .... sometimes but not very often get suspended,
but then are put right back in the same class. Their peers see this and think, "oh I can do that too and not get in trouble." Students today have little or no respect for anything.
Brooklyn Teacher

[Unregistered]

I am looking for differnt opinions about teacher salaries. how can I get a copy or information about this. I also need the requirments to become a teacher. What were you asked in order to become a teacher.


you can always google the state or disctrict that you're looking into and normally they have the salary step schedule posted on the districts website. either way teachers get paid way too little for the amount of work that we do! i'm a first year teacher and i enjoy teaching and the kids and all but there's also a great deal of paper pushing, conferences, lunch/morning duty, preparing lessons, grading papers, and calling parents that consumes prep periods and time outside of work. i love it though!

[b just]

If you can't see the difference between a profession (vocation) like teaching and a low skill job like roofing, I don't think I can help you understand the importance of tenure. If you are a teacher, you need to research the history of our profession because your misshappen attitudes border on betrayal.
Still, here it is in brief: teachers live in the world of ideals, a world that must remain unsullied by power brokers holding advancement or financial gain (or loss of job) as a reward or punishment.
By the way, all this talk about getting rid of bad teachers is nonsense. Like stand up comics, teachers who bomb pay the price on their stage. Unless you are referring to "bad" teachers who don't subscribe to your narrow relgious agenda.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Lisa, I take offense to your comment that veteran teachers are the poorest teachers.

I said that they CAN BE the poorest teachers. I see little correlation between years of experience and the quality of teaching. It may be there, but it certainly is not obvious.

I don't know where you come from but I have been teaching for 22 years and can honestly say that I am probably just as dedicatd now as I was when I started or perhaps even more so.

Dedication is only a small part of the equation. And you cannot consider yourself representative of all veteran teachers.

The biggest problem in teaching is parents not being held accountable for the actions of their children. Call a parent to tell them about child's poor behavior and their response all too often, is "What did you do to him/her?"

Behavior problems are largely a result of substandard teaching methods, in my experience.

Our mayor and chancellor have no clue as to what it's really like in a classroom ... it's harder than ever to deal with disruptive children. They threaten you .... sometimes but not very often get suspended, but then are put right back in the same class. Their peers see this and think, "oh I can do that too and not get in trouble." Students today have little or no respect for anything.

Certain teachers are better at commanding respect. Pure and simple. If your students do not respect you, then maybe you need to bring in a teaching coach to watch your classroom and recommend changes in your teaching strategy.

For example, some teachers call on raised hands after asking questions. (Do you?) These same teachers have been at it for 20 years and wonder why their kids act up and appear disinterested in the learning process. In this situation, the parents are right--the teacher's instructional strategy is causing much of the problem. But how can that be if the teacher is so experienced? The answer is simple: There is little correlation between experience and quality.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

If you can't see the difference between a profession (vocation) like teaching and a low skill job like roofing, I don't think I can help you understand the importance of tenure.

Okay, let's consider a "skilled" profession like law. Is there tenure in law? What about medicine?

By the way, all this talk about getting rid of bad teachers is nonsense. Like stand up comics, teachers who bomb pay the price on their stage. Unless you are referring to "bad" teachers who don't subscribe to your narrow relgious agenda.

Some teachers don't care if they bomb on stage. And you miss the most important issue of all: It isn't the teachers that pay the price, is it? Who pays the ultimate price for bad teaching? Can you answer that question.

Your response is precisely why I oppose tenure. Your attitude that (to paraphrase) "Well, if a teacher ****************s they will pay the price..." completely misses the point of education. The kids are the ones that pay, not the teacher. Even if the teacher's life ends in misery, of what consolation is that to the kids and parents??

BTW, you need to craft better arguments than the blatantly ad hominem. (Betrayal? Religious? Give me a break.)

So answer the question: Should incompetence be a basis for dismissal?

[b just]

Who defines "incompetence?" Are you really so naive as to assume that the principal or the board have the detached, unbiased wisdom to assume the role of judge and jury? Then you would have only a sort of game playing beaurocrat on the teaching staff. Or would you set up a group of teachers so that only the popular remain? If you think standardized test results are fair, you haven't looked too closely.
The growing number of people who cry for an end to tenure are really assaulting the teaching profession as one of the last remaining places where a dedicated individual can carry out a challenging intellectual calling without the narrow minded bigots who are trying to turn our world into a capitalist paradise where only the priviledged and their yesman lackies can prosper.
By the way, we teachers do not have tenure. We have due process. Which means you can't fire me without a good reason. So keep trying, scabs, we still have some rights left and until you and your bosses manage to take them away, teachers are still free to pursue truth and excellence instead of the party line.

[Unregistered]

My husband works 7 days a week 12 to 14 hours a day. If I worked the hrs. he does I too could make more $$. I think our teacher salary is too low but I do love the time we have off.

[b just]

Politicians are trying to stir up resentment toward teachers because we have time off and do a job that is a labor of love. And because they hate unions.
A few years from now, all Americans will be forced to work sweatshop hours and conditions if we can't manage to change these perceptions. As a child, I was told all of this mechanization would result in more leisure time. Now the norm is both parents working long hours. Instead of comparing teachers with roofers and businessmen, we should be comparing ourselves with lawyers who get paid for the time they spend thinking about their cases. Add up your hours that way. Compare teachers to firemen who work 10 or 15 days of the month. Teachers work a high stress job similar to paramedics and a creative job similar to artists. We are really in a class by ourselves and attempts to compare us with other workers or professional are usually done with ulterior motives of disassembling the benefits we have. Again, this is the internet. The people posing as teachers who make these subtle arguements against our working conditions are not to be trusted!

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Politicians are trying to stir up resentment toward teachers because we have time off and do a job that is a labor of love. And because they hate unions.

Do you think your brush is a little wide, perhaps?

The politician-as-bogeyman argument does nothing to address the issues.

A few years from now, all Americans will be forced to work sweatshop hours and conditions if we can't manage to change these perceptions.

This is the slippery slope argument, which could also be called truth-by-prophecy. In truth, you have no way of knowing what the future holds. Frankly, I think the future will be about the same as it is now, but that is pure conjecture on my part, just as it is on yours.

As a child, I was told all of this mechanization would result in more leisure time. Now the norm is both parents working long hours.

There are numerous socioeconomic reasons for the longer work day. I think one is the bad habit the public has garnered recently in buying tons of new crap on credit. When I was a kid, none of my friends had new cars. In fact, none of my friends had anything remotely resembling a new car. But I see kids driving new cars all the time now. With the changes in credit laws and lower interest rates, people are buying more stuff, which requires them to work longer to pay the bills. In my opinion, people are nowhere near as frugal as they used to be. (But these are just my impressions.)

Instead of comparing teachers with roofers and businessmen, we should be comparing ourselves with lawyers who get paid for the time they spend thinking about their cases. Add up your hours that way. Compare teachers to firemen who work 10 or 15 days of the month. Teachers work a high stress job similar to paramedics and a creative job similar to artists. We are really in a class by ourselves and attempts to compare us with other workers or professional are usually done with ulterior motives of disassembling the benefits we have.

Every freakin' profession in the world thinks they're the best. Firemen will tell you the same about their jobs. Doctors claim that they should be paid the highest because they have the most responsibility.

Here is why I think teachers are paid too low:

1. Most teachers have spent little time furthering skills outside of teaching, so they are locked into a single profession. Therefore, they have almost no bargaining power because the district knows they need the job. That hurts all of us.

2. By granting teachers tenure, the district and state knows we are going to be highly unwilling to leave our current job. Again, that hurts all teachers, tenured or untenured.

3. Teaching is a labor of love and most of us don't get in it for the money. The state knows this and pays us accordingly.

4. If the district knows it can fill a position for $30,000 a year, it isn't going to pay $35,000 a year. It's simple economics -- if I can get my house roofed for $4000, I'm not going to pay $4500. As long as we are willing to work for the money, our wages will be low.

5. We only work ten months of the year, and this has to be taken into account.

Do I want more pay? Absolutely. But I realize we are often our own worst enemy at the bargaining table.

Again, this is the internet. The people posing as teachers who make these subtle arguements against our working conditions are not to be trusted!

Again, an ad hominem argument. Posts should be judged on the soundness of the arguments, not on whether you think the poster can be trusted. Even if the governor was posting here in secrecy, what difference would it make?

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Who defines "incompetence?"

How about the people that hired the teachers in the first place?!?!?! If they are so unwise and biased, then how do you know you, or any other teacher for that matter, even deserved the job?

Since no one seems to want to answer the question, I will ask again: Should incompetence be a basis for dismissal?

Are you really so naive as to assume that the principal or the board have the detached, unbiased wisdom to assume the role of judge and jury?

Okay, are you so naive as to assume the principal or board have the detached, unbiased wisdom to hire teachers? If not, then who does?

The shop foreman is possibly biased, and possibly unwise. Yet he has the power to fire employees he thinks are incompetent. The same goes for managers all over the world in every profession that I can recall.

The growing number of people who cry for an end to tenure are really assaulting the teaching profession as one of the last remaining places where a dedicated individual can carry out a challenging intellectual calling without the narrow minded bigots who are trying to turn our world into a capitalist paradise where only the priviledged and their yesman lackies can prosper.

Now apply the same reasoning to the tutor you hire to help your kid, or the roofer you hired to roof your house, or the lawyer you hire to state your case.

We want tenure, but think no one else should have it. I sure as Hell want to be able to fire my mechanic if I think he isn't doing a good job. If I should be able to fire him, then I think the state should be able to fire me.

By the way, we teachers do not have tenure. We have due process. Which means you can't fire me without a good reason.

It depends on what state you are referring. California does have tenure, which can be verified by going to the California Law page, selecting Education, and typing "tenure" in the search field.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

So, in your opinion is incompetence a good reason to fire a teacher?

So keep trying, scabs, we still have some rights left and until you and your bosses manage to take them away, teachers are still free to pursue truth and excellence instead of the party line.

There is no RIGHT to tenure. If there was, everyone would have it.

[A retiting MA teacher]

You're equating "experience" with "quality." In my experience, the veterans are often the poorest teachers on campus. In your opinion, where does quality fit into the picture? Should the best teachers be paid more?


Perhaps that is the way it is in your school. I am sorry for that. But experience in a classroom setting is more important than any tidbit of knowledge you may bring to the task. It is an art, not a science. Someday, when you are the experienced teacher you will understand.

34 Years and leaving the task to you geniuses

[t tuttle]

.

We want tenure, but think no one else should have it. I sure as Hell want to be able to fire my mechanic if I think he isn't doing a good job. If I should be able to fire him, then I think the state should be able to fire me.

There is no RIGHT to tenure. If there was, everyone would have it.[/QUOTE]

I have to side with b just on this one. I think Lisa is a plant who comes onto this forum to try to cheapen our profession from within. All rights are negotiated. Don't let union busters disquised as well meaning educators influence us teachers. You have a right to a job with dignity. It's tough enough without all this sniping at the few benefits that make our profession an honorable one that attracts the brightest and best. Our society only respects money and power. We teachers must hold on to what little gains have been won with hardship and sacrifice. b just is right. Don't trust these scabs who pose as teachers.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Perhaps that is the way it is in your school. I am sorry for that.

Why does one poster after another fail to see that I said "OFTEN the poorest teachers on campus."

But experience in a classroom setting is more important than any tidbit of knowledge you may bring to the task.

The fallacy of limited options. There is more to teaching than experience and knowledge. Hmmm.... how about SKILL? Do you think skill has anything to do with it?

It is an art, not a science. Someday, when you are the experienced teacher you will understand.

It is not a science? At all? There is no body of research in education theory? There are no research-based teaching methods? Are you sure about that?

Please be careful when crafting arguments. Teaching is both an art and a science and I don't think anyone can reasonably disagree.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

I have to side with b just on this one. I think Lisa is a plant who comes onto this forum to try to cheapen our profession from within.

Again, those that oppose me cannot get off the ad hominem arguments.

All rights are negotiated.

If the state can take it away, then it isn't a right.

Don't let union busters disquised as well meaning educators influence us teachers. You have a right to a job with dignity.

Does the welder have a right to a job with dignity? Does he have the right to tenure?

One post after another fails to explain why teachers should be given tenure. You are all educated. Are ad hominem attacks the best you can do?

And how about answering my question: Should incompetence be a basis for dismissal? I have only asked this simple question about five times now and no one seems to be able to respond.

How about another question: A principal sees a teacher employing a teaching method that is blatantly ineffective and damaging to the students' self-esteem. The classroom is the poorest achieving in the entire school and the student discipline is chaotic. The teacher is completely unwilling to listen to any advice and continues using the practice. Should this teacher be allowed to continue teaching if a more skillful teacher is available as a replacement?

[b just]

This is my final post. You refuse to listen. The methodology of the right is so evident in your repeating the same trite arguements over and over and refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of responses.
For the last time....The purpose of due process is to protect teachers from being persecuted for their ideas. Unless incompetence can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by disinterested parties, there is far too much politics in schools to throw teachers to the wolves, which you seem bound and determined to see happen. Keep on with your propaganda, but stop whining that no one gives you a reason for protecting teachers. You've been told.

[Unregistered]

I cannot believe the quote that most behavior problems are caused by the teachers. You're naive, a young "know-it-all", or simply rude. I'll hope it's the first.

Have you ever taught in a middle school chock full of rebellious, rude, defiant, beligerent and disrespectful adolescents? Have you ever experienced 25 of the previous year's 42 long-termed, extremely violent and dangerous students in ONE class at the SAME time? I'll bet not. How can you fairly judge another until you have experienced their world? It's simple, you can't!

When I took my current position three years ago, my school had recently experienced redistricting. In a nutshell, adminstration took 2 opposing/violent gangs.. East & South Side, and placed them together in a formerly diverse but successful school. The history of my particular position over the last ten years is: Teacher #1 stayed 3 yrs - then transferred; #2 stayed 2 weeks; #3 lasted just 4, #5-#9were subs for the balance of the year since no certified professional would consider the position. The next fall, #10 stayed for several years even though he became the dumping ground for all failing/long-termed students and then left for an elementary school. Teacher #11 lost control on day 1, was fired in March and quit teaching altogether in early April. I'm #13 and this is my 3rd year. The only reason I'm surviving is because I took this job with the promise that the principal would remove a handful of "ring leaders" if I felt it was necessary to regain control. You see, I'm a veteran teacher in my 22nd year. My discipline problems had nothing to do with me, I was set up for failure by the situation. I did survive only because I called over 350 parents by December. As a matter of fact, I turned the program around by March, but it was the most difficult challenge I have ever faced.

Please rethink before you judge. Sometimes it IS THE STUDENTS because they have been TAUGHT to NOT RESPECT AUTHORITY, ANY AUTHORITY in school or their community. Many don't even respect their parent.....note that's singular. It's not racial by any form, it's a socioeconomic thing...we need more answers to truly help these challenging kids.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

I cannot believe the quote that most behavior problems are caused by the teachers.

Hold on now! If you are going to put words in my mouth, at least get my message right.

I said that behavior problems are often a direct result of instructional technique. The students cause the actual problems, but these problems can be alleviated or eliminated by using proper instructional strategy.

As an instructional leader, I step into many classrooms. I see some classrooms that are total chaos, and some that are quiet and responsive.

SAME KIDS!! This is a high school. It is the same freakin' kids, but in one class they tear it up, and in another they behave. So what's the difference? Teaching strategies.

So if your kids are giving you a rough time, have someone step into your class and watch your technique to offer suggestions.

For example, do you call on raised hands? (I bet you do.) If so, half of your problem is right there.

Blaming the kids does no one any good. THe only cure for the problem is to examine our own methods of instruction. Until you do, you have no way of knowing where the problem exists.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

This is my final post. You refuse to listen.

Listen to WHAT?? You haven't offered anything but personal attacks and ad hominem fallacies. Where is the sound reasoning? Where are the answers to my questions?

The methodology of the right is so evident in your repeating the same trite arguements over and over and refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of responses.
For the last time....The purpose of due process is to protect teachers from being persecuted for their ideas.

These aren't universities we are talking about. Universities incorporated tenure to protect ideas because university faculty are hired primarily to *research and publish.* K-12 teachers almost never publish. They are hired to teach, not indoctrinate.

Unless incompetence can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by disinterested parties,

In other words, set up such an unrealistic standard that any amount of incompetence goes unchecked. So essentially a teacher can be as bad as they want to be and essentially nothing can be done about it.

there is far too much politics in schools to throw teachers to the wolves, which you seem bound and determined to see happen. Keep on with your propaganda, but stop whining that no one gives you a reason for protecting teachers. You've been told.

Yeah, and I notice a tremendous amount of concern you show for those that are really hurt by bad teaching, the kids. What about them?

I'm not interested in protecting bad teachers because (1) they hurt the image of my profession and (2) they hurt the kids. And the fact that you want seem to want to protect them really concerns me. Do the rest of your teachers at your school share your beliefs?

By the way, does anyone see the irony in the following statements?

The methodology of the right is so evident...

there is far too much politics in schools to throw teachers to the wolves,

Ye who attacks me for my perceived political beliefs has no right to complain about the overly charged political atmosphere on school grounds. :D

[tom tuttle]

lisa h says any rights she can take away are not rights by definition. sounds like the primary tenent of neo conservatism. right to privacy, right to woman's control over her own body, right to a representative government, we can take them away, so you never had them.
and why all this focus on the "bad teachers" and the sudden need to protect the poor students from them? so, the teacher is the enemy here. not the underfunded, over regulated schools. not the class system that rewards the wealthy and punishes the underpriviledged. not the out of control immigration policies. nope,it's all the fault of the one member of society who has to bear it all on her shoulders.
what lisa wants is to take away teacher autonomy. without legal protections, the teacher as social conscience can finally be done away with so the neo cons can finish turning society into a haven for corportate greed.
nice try. kudos to the sharp teachers who exposed this propagandist.
don't buy it folks! teachers are not the problem, we're the solution.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

lisa h says any rights she can take away are not rights by definition. sounds like the primary tenent of neo conservatism.

You are giving the kids watching this forum one Helluva lesson on bad argumentation. First off, I am not a neo-Conservative, and even if I was what difference does it make? Why should the soundness of one's arguments depend on the political persuasion of the author?

and why all this focus on the "bad teachers" and the sudden need to protect the poor students from them?

Because bad teachers hurt kids. Do you agree? Yes or no?

Are there other problems in the school system? Sure. But that isn't the issue here. I cannot fathom how anyone can go out of their way to let bad teachers continue their practice. Carpenters don't want bad carpenters continuing their practice, why should teachers?

what lisa wants is to take away teacher autonomy. without legal protections, the teacher as social conscience can finally be done away with so the neo cons can finish turning society into a haven for corportate greed.

You're not even arguing now; you're ranting.

You don't know me. You don't know my political background. So get off the personal attacks and name-calling. You may find this hard to believe, but I don't have to agree with you.

The hypocrisy here is blatant. You talk about the limitations on personal freedom, but you are clearly displaying an antagonistic approach to anyone that doesn't agree with your personal politics.

teachers are not the problem, we're the solution.

Unless we are willing to enhance the quality of the teaching profession (which includes allowing others to replace bad teachers with better teachers), then we are very much a part of the problem.

You are mistaken: Some students are the problem; some parents are the problem; some teachers are the problem; some administrators are the problem. We only have control over ourselves, so it does no good to try and pin the blame on others.

[t tuttle]

"We only have control over ourselves, so it does no good to try and pin the blame others."
At last we agree. Focus on becoming a better teacher and quit trying so hard to judge other teachers.
I'm going to join the others who decided to give up on you. You're not going to change your mind and you obviously aren't going to change mine.
I'm guessing you teach at a school full of middle or upper class students who come to school well fed and ready to learn. In that case, the teachers have nothing much to do but play politics and one upmanship on one another: "I'm a better teacher than you and I'm going to try to get you fired from your cushy job to prove it."
For those of us who teach children from preliterate homes who are desperately poor, just showing up for work calls for a medal of honor. For us, your desire to judge who is a good and who is a bad teacher is irrelevant. It's like asking the fireman who is pulling people out of a burning building whether he deserves his job or not.
There are two Americas, sister. Best stay on your side of the (tracks) (suburbs). Those of us on this side don't have to ask silly questions about who gets to keep their job. We don't have people standing in line over here to take over. We are, in fact, desparate for anyone with guts enough to at least try to make a difference in these poor kids lives.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

At last we agree. Focus on becoming a better teacher and quit trying so hard to judge other teachers.

Right. We should let those who hired the teachers judge them, right?

Or do you want no one to judge them? Complete unaccountability.


I'm guessing you teach at a school full of middle or upper class students who come to school well fed and ready to learn.

Most of the kids at my school receive free meals. Or are we still relying on the starvation excuse to explain their poor performance?

In that case, the teachers have nothing much to do but play politics and one upmanship on one another: "I'm a better teacher than you and I'm going to try to get you fired from your cushy job to prove it."

Where did you get that crap? Nothing I have said even remotely indicates such an attitude. You don't prove someone is bad by firing them; rather, you fire them because they are bad.

For those of us who teach children from preliterate homes who are desperately poor, just showing up for work calls for a medal of honor. For us, your desire to judge who is a good and who is a bad teacher is irrelevant. It's like asking the fireman who is pulling people out of a burning building whether he deserves his job or not.

I am certain that (1) firemen do judge the worth of their fellow firemen, (2) someone judges them and fires them if they are incompetent.

So who should judge the skills of firemen? No one? Themselves?

And once more, is bad teaching part of the problem? Yes or no?

Will I get a concise answer to these questions? Probably not.

There are two Americas, sister. Best stay on your side of the (tracks) (suburbs).

Heh! Again we have the personal attacks and jumps to conclusion.

Those of us on this side don't have to ask silly questions about who gets to keep their job. We don't have people standing in line over here to take over. We are, in fact, desparate for anyone with guts enough to at least try to make a difference in these poor kids lives.

So you are free to be as bad as you want to be simply because the district is desparate for teachers? Sorry if I misunderstand, but that appears to be the point you are really making here.

Bad teachers do none of us any good. They hurt our reputation, which ultimately results in lower wages as the populace decides to spend its money elsewhere. A teacher who cares little about his teaching skill and inadequancies is no colleague of mine.

[t tuttle]

Define "bad teacher."

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

First of all, I am not the authority on defining bad teacher, only that there are such things and they should be replaced.

There is probably more than one way to define a bad teacher, just as there is more than one way to define a bad actor. Here is one:

bad teacher -- A teacher who uses ineffective teaching practices and either doesn't give a lick or is so unskilled that they are unable to do anything about it.

Now I will be asked to define "teacher," "ineffective," "teaching," "practices," and/or "unskilled." And then I will be asked to describe all the terms comprising these definitions, ad infinitum, in the dim hopes of catching me in an inconstistency. The tactics never change.

So, now that I have answered your question, answer mine (ha! yeah, right!):

1. Is there such a thing as a bad teacher?

2. Are bad teachers a part of the problem?

3. Should bad teachers (if you agree they exist) be replaced if a better teacher is available?

I am down on bad teachers and I shant quit ripping them.

[t tuttle]

Actually, I'm not at all interested in semantics, but I think you're beginning to understand my objections.
I'll be glad to really think over what we should do with "bad teachers" if you or someone can give me a working definition of what a bad teacher is and how to recognize one.
The first part of your definition, a bad teacher = one with bad teaching techniques is not really very helpful since, as you recognize, defining bad techniques isn't as easy as it sounds.
The second part of your definition, that the teacher doesn't give a lick is even harder to measure. I for one, eschew displaying my passions.
Our profession seems to be working toward standards that will make these difficult matters somewhat measurable, but right now we don't have anything close to a lock on measuring teacher quality.
On the other hand, most experienced teachers have seen attempts by authoriities who don't like a teacher's ideas go after her on nebulous claims of bad teaching. For example, a district I know well hired non Hispanics as a stop gap method, firing the sincere young teachers just before tenure while they shopped for the difficult to find teachers that fit their "profile". The adminsitrators involved lost their jobs eventually, but not until they'd broken many young hearts.

Excuse me for suspecting your motives. Like many experienced teachers, my history with persons who talk about "bad teachers" is mostly about ulterior motives. You may be sincere in your quest to define excellence, but, unless you're accepted as a good deal more impartial than you at first appear, I wager you'll have a difficult time with this crusade.
Until we find a measuring device for quality in our field, we're all stuck with the peers we disagree with.

One more thing. When standardized test first became the thing a few years back, a couple of teachers attacked a male teacher for his test scores, which were a few percentage points lower than theirs. Then I pointed out that because the principal placed most of the difficult boys in this teacher's class, it was an uneven playing field. These teachers had a ratio of 4 girls to 1 boy in their classes and the male teacher had the reverse. Nobody had noticed that and he was being badgered out of his job till I pointed out the discrepancy. When you take into account the higher test scores of females to males, this teacher actually tested higher. Since then, people around here have been a little more careful about attacking "bad teachers."

My county has neatly segregated neighborhoods. Those of us who teach at the schools with financially stressed students have watched our peers in the more fortunate schools be lauded and rewarded for essentially teaching at schools where the students come to them ready to succeed. Surely you are aware that these injustices exist? Until our society stops dividing opportunities by color and birth, attempts to judge the unfortunate and those who serve them by the priveledged will just not be welcome.

Due process is the only thing that makes this profession attractive to men and women who neither fit the profile of the priviledged nor want much to do with them. The priviledged hold most of the cards. Time and time again, they have attempted, and still attempt to use power to eliminate those who challenge their "rights" to power. Tenure was invented to protect the teaching profession from the bigotry that controls so many other areas of our society.

I don't appreciate people with power who act superior to the powerless and assume they are innately superior. For that reason alone, I have rubbed some administrative types (people who are attracted to power) the wrong way. I've been through 12 principals and 3 superintendents in the last 15 years. Most of them quit because they couldn't handle the heat, but a few of them would have fired me the first time I told them where to take their bigoted ideas about my students. Naturally, they attempted to attack my teaching as justification.

Hope this helps. It may be that you really are a sincere person with a question that you just don't realize is really very loaded. If not, it has helped me to use your doggedness to clarify my own position. For that I thank you, Lisa. Good luck in your pursuit of excellence. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

The first part of your definition, a bad teacher = one with bad teaching techniques is not really very helpful since, as you recognize, defining bad techniques isn't as easy as it sounds.

Actually, there is a huge body of research in education that directly addresses teaching techniques and their effectiveness. So I don't understand why you say that distinguishing bad teaching from good teaching is so difficult. Common sense and research can always be applied.

The second part of your definition, that the teacher doesn't give a lick is even harder to measure.

Not at all if the teacher openly admits it, which I have seen teachers do on multiple occassions. To you, that means nothing from what I can tell. To me, that tells me a lot.

It seems you are trying to apply a scientific numerical value to "uncaring," which is completely unnecessary. An uncaring teacher is not hard to spot, and certainly not hard to verify with some examination. To make it sound impossible is just a coverup. What manager of any industry would be able to replace a worker under such unrealistic demands?

Our profession seems to be working toward standards that will make these difficult matters somewhat measurable, but right now we don't have anything close to a lock on measuring teacher quality.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you can't tell a bad teacher from a good teacher?

If so, how do you know that you are good teacher yourself? How do you evaluate your own effectiveness? Or do you?

On the other hand, most experienced teachers have seen attempts by authoriities who don't like a teacher's ideas go after her on nebulous claims of bad teaching.

Most? That's a tall claim. You have evidence to back your statement?

For example, a district I know well hired non Hispanics as a stop gap method, firing the sincere young teachers just before tenure while they shopped for the difficult to find teachers that fit their "profile".

So how did tenure help these teachers? These people were fired BECAUSE of tenure. You admitted it yourself.

Your post points out what is wrong with tenure. Since districts are afraid to be stuck with teachers it doesn't want, it fires teachers before they have a chance to prove their worth. The same applies to the college level; junior faculty are fired left and right because tenured professors are almost impossible to terminate. That does not help the profession one iota.

Excuse me for suspecting your motives. Like many experienced teachers, my history with persons who talk about "bad teachers" is mostly about ulterior motives. You may be sincere in your quest to define excellence, but, unless you're accepted as a good deal more impartial than you at first appear, I wager you'll have a difficult time with this crusade.

And YOU are impartial???

Until we find a measuring device for quality in our field, we're all stuck with the peers we disagree with.

Disagree with?? Bad teaching is not a mere disagreement.

[I mentioned nothing about test scores in my post, so I deleted the straw man.]

Until our society stops dividing opportunities by color and birth, attempts to judge the unfortunate and those who serve them by the priveledged will just not be welcome.

Bad teachers are now just the "unfortunate?" A teacher is allowed to be as bad as she wants to be simply because she works in a poverty-stricken district?

I don't give a damn which school you consider, there will always be some teachers that can get students to do their best, and some that habitually get students to be their worst. To suggest that it is impossible to distinguish between the two is ludicrous.

The priviledged hold most of the cards. Time and time again, they have attempted, and still attempt to use power to eliminate those who challenge their "rights" to power. Tenure was invented to protect the teaching profession from the bigotry that controls so many other areas of our society.

Tenure does nothing of the sort, because until a teacher's probationary period ends they can be fired. If an administration is bigoted, they will fire the teachers before they reach the end of their probationary period. You admitted this yourself.

Tenure is simply a perk, and a bad one for the teaching profession. The reasons for tenure are to preserve the freedom to publish controversial research. Teachers at the K-12 level almost never engage in such research.

Tenure does nothing for me. The major effects I feel from tenure are a lowering of the reputation for the entire teaching profession. Sit in a diner sometime and listen to parents talk about teachers. Little of the talk is good; unfortunately, their complaints are often right on.

Good luck in your pursuit of excellence. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

You may want to understand the quote before you use it.

Besides, I am certainly willing to allow others to judge my teaching. I do it all the time.

By the way, once again a poster has ignored my questions. So I ask again:

1. Is there such a thing as a bad teacher?

2. Are bad teachers a part of the problem?

3. Should bad teachers (if you agree they exist) be replaced if a better teacher is available?

[tuttle]

How do you define "bad teacher?"

[redman]

Bad teacher: someone who disagrees with me.

Scab: Member of a union who breaks rank for personal or poliitical agenda.

L. Hotscakes: Wants teachers to have the same protections as roofers and factory workers.

Tuttle: Idealist who doesn't know when to give up. (The cables plugged in but the sound is turned off.)

[El Tortuga]

New York Times today's date. article titled "Tenure, Turnover, and the Quality of Teaching."
Study shows quality tied to longevity. Biggest problem in teaching is attracting good people and keeping them past the first year or two.

[Jane Doe]

The corporations have taken over the media and the government. If they can just get there hands on education....

How? Go after union protections by spreading the myth of the "bad teacher" instead of focusing on systematic problems.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

How do you define bad writing? According to the logic posted here, unless you can pointedly define bad writing, you can't assign grades to it. Baloney!

I cannot believe that a profession comprising educated people cannot identify bad teaching when it sees it. From what I can see, every profession has been able to do it except teachers. I refuse to believe we are so incompetent.

Since my questions have yet again to be answered, let me try once more:

1. Are there bad teachers?

2. Are bad teachers part of the problem?

3. Should bad teachers (if you agree they exist) be replaced with better teachers?

@*$^%@, a simple yes or no would suffice!

So go on with the personal attacks, because that is all you have.

[Jane Doe]

So after all this talk, you can't even define what you mean by "bad teacher?"

What, pray tell, is the point of discussing sentencing for treason if know one can define it?

[redman]

We have so many standards for bad writing, but just to model for you how to define something, here goes: "Bad writing is writing that is poorly constructed, does not follow the basic rules of grammar, wanders from it's central point or fails to address the central point."

That's just one definition, but as long as it is given in the form of a rubric before the writing commences, almost any definition suffices.

Sticking to your metaphor of roofing, if I contract a roofer and tell him I want two layers of #6 felt firmly affixed beneath interlocking asphalt tiles, that is the rubric and any variance could then be defined as "bad roofing". Not, by the way, "bad roofer." Big difference, the first being a working definition agreed upon by mature people and the other "name calling" by immature personalities.

So, perhaps we can agree there is "bad teaching" if only you can define what "good teaching" is.

If you want to avoid name calling, don't start a discussion with indiscriminate labeling.

[LeticiaL.]

After putting 4 kids through public schools and teaching for 18 years, I can say I have never met a bad teacher.

Bad politicians are many, and they control everything about our schools and even the air we breathe. Spend your energy going after them!

Lisa, do you have bad students? Are you as srident about identifying and expunging them?

You may be a great teacher, but you are not a good union member.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

"Bad writing is writing that is poorly constructed, does not follow the basic rules of grammar, wanders from it's central point or fails to address the central point."

Okay, bad teachers present lesson plans that are poorly constructed, do not follow best practices established through scientific research, wander from their central point, and fail to address the learning objective. And they do it despite being shown the ineffectiveness of their approach.

This assumes that the teachers actually have lesson plans. Some of them don't. We have some that think teaching is about handing out workbooks, then walking around class helping those who raise their hands. Crap, I can get a bus driver to teach as well.

We even have some teachers at my high school that think word searches constitute academic work.

One of my colleagues puts kids at the front of the class to defend solutions to their previous night's homework. Kids that have mistakes are asked to identify them on their own. After a few minutes, the rest of the class starts chanting out to the kid where the mistake is, producing a cacophony of confusing instructions. After about five minutes of this humiliation, one of the kids started to cry. (Thanks to this teacher, the kid will probably never like mathematics.)

But to you, that teacher is just as good as anyone else. I say if that is true, then we are in world of hurt.

After putting 4 kids through public schools and teaching for 18 years, I can say I have never met a bad teacher.

So are you saying there are no bad teachers?

Why is it so hard to simply answer the question?? Is there such a thing as a bad teacher?

Bad politicians are many, and they control everything about our schools and even the air we breathe. Spend your energy going after them!

Red herring.

Lisa, do you have bad students? Are you as srident about identifying and expunging them?

I teach them.

You may be a great teacher, but you are not a good union member.

I would rather be a great teacher.

And how do you define a good union member?

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Sticking to your metaphor of roofing, if I contract a roofer and tell him I want two layers of #6 felt firmly affixed beneath interlocking asphalt tiles, that is the rubric and any variance could then be defined as "bad roofing". Not, by the way, "bad roofer."

If the roofer is shown how his roofing does not conform to acceptable standards, and he refuses to change or is unable to change, would he then be a bad roofer?

Would you replace him with someone you felt could do a better job?

[Letitia L.]

There is no such thing as a bad teacher.

You said that if you had a bad student you would teach him. I have never had a bad student. I have only had students who behave badly at times. My job is to teach them,not to judge them.

There is a big difference between telling someone they are behaving badly and need to improve and condemning them as "bad" people. if there are teachers who do not behave the way you approve of, teach them. Stop judging them. It isn't your job and will only make you unhappy. I am sorry you have lost respect for the other teachers in your school, but you must look to your own heart to regain that respect. You will not be able to destroy them or their carreers, and attempting to do so will destroy yourself.

A badly behaving union member is one who enjoys the protections of the union while attempting to destroy those protections, possibly to curry favor with those who rule.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

There is no such thing as a bad teacher.

Okay, at least you answered the question. I think a lot of people (especially some frustrated parents) will disagree.

Are there bad politicians? According to the logic you present below, no. Are there bad carpenters? I guess not. Hell, don't we all feel better now?

You said that if you had a bad student you would teach him. I have never had a bad student. I have only had students who behave badly at times. My job is to teach them,not to judge them.

Okay, and when a teacher refuses to be taught? What then?

Forget the labels for a moment... what do you propose to do with a tenured teacher who is completely ineffective in the classroom and refuses to get better? Enough of the union banter, what is your plan?

There is a big difference between telling someone they are behaving badly and need to improve and condemning them as "bad" people.

With a student, I can recommend punishment. The student is accountable because the teacher, principal, and parents can enact punishment that makes his behavior detrimental to himself.

With tenure, what do you propose to do with a teacher who acts just as badly? I want to see your plan.

But you don't have a plan, do you? You say, "teach them," but these aren't students. Tenured teachers simply do not have implement a damn thing you say, so what then? What is your PLAN?

Those kids need better instruction, but we instead focus on these teachers' feelings. Screw 'em. I have ZERO empathy for teachers that refuse to get better.

if there are teachers who do not behave the way you approve of, teach them. Stop judging them. It isn't your job and will only make you unhappy. I am sorry you have lost respect for the other teachers in your school, but you must look to your own heart to regain that respect. You will not be able to destroy them or their carreers, and attempting to do so will destroy yourself.

I didn't come here to have Dr. Phil tell me how to be happy.

A badly behaving union member is one who enjoys the protections of the union while attempting to destroy those protections, possibly to curry favor with those who rule.

Tenure is protection for the incompetent; I don't give a damn about their problems. And to call someone a bad union member simply because he doesn't agree with everything the union demands is, IMO, a little hypocritical on your part. You don't want people labeled "bad," but you do it yourself. Your true colors showed.

[Jane Doe]

As I see it, this discussion has come down to perception:

Two men looked out of prison bars;
One saw mud, the other saw stars.

Lisa seems to see a world full of bad teachers.

Leticicia sees no bad teachers.

Of course we all have a right to see the world through whatever shaded glasses we wish to put on, but the problem is that negative thinking people want to change a system of protection enjoyed by millions to go after, what percentage?

What percentage of teachers are bad, Lisa? Enough to take away the security that we all enjoy?

I for one would rather live in a country where we do not have to be strip searched every time we board public transportation just to allay the fears of those who see the world as a terrorist haven. People ask me if I'd risk death for the convenience of not being treated as a criminal. Well, yes I would rather face the prospect of dying on an airplane than a nation that treats every citizen like a potential terrorist. We do that, and no matter what else happens, the loss of freedoms our government has imposed has granted the terrorists their victory by definition. We have allowed terror to rule us.

If we teachers allow the fear of a few bad teachers to take away the protections of the many good teachers, we give up too much for what may be the perception of some overwrought, angry ("screw them") individuals whose real problem is probably rooted in hurt feelings instead of concern for our profession. (Maybe Dr. Phil might be of some help, dear)

[t tuttle]

Here is the plan.

Team teaching.

Don't knock it till you've tried it. How do you know so much about who is a good teacher and who is a bad one? Have you spent that much time in the other teacher's classroom, or are you judging them by second and third hand accounts? Join a team with a group of teachers and influence one another on a daily basis. You'll feel less paranoid and angry and Dr. Phil can concentrate on the flood victims.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Of course we all have a right to see the world through whatever shaded glasses we wish to put on, but the problem is that negative thinking people want to change a system of protection enjoyed by millions to go after, what percentage?

If you are a kid sitting in a class taught by an incompetent, you tell me what good it does to tell this kid that it is okay -- the other kids are likely to be taught by someone skilled. To that kid, percentages do not matter.

What percentage of the popululation are thieves? Probably 1%. But when we find someone stealing, we take action, don't we?

When we see an ineffective teacher, that teacher needs to improve come Hell or high water. And if the teacher doesn't improve, then that teacher needs to be replaced with someone better. Do you agree?

What is common sense in all other professions seems to go right over our heads. And this refusal to acknowledge bad teaching and do something about bad teachers is what makes a mockery of our profession and ultimately hurts kids.

Well, yes I would rather face the prospect of dying on an airplane than a nation that treats every citizen like a potential terrorist.

One small problem with your analogy -- it is the kids, not you, that are hurt by bad teaching. In essense, you are saying that you would rather the kids face the prospect of dying on an airplane (receiving a crappy education) than for you to be treated like a potential terrorist (having to face the risk of losing your job).

Here is the plan.

Team teaching.

Oh, so instead of 10% of the students receiving 100% less instruction, you end up with 100% of the students receiving 10% less instruction. This is spreading the incompetence out over a wide area instead of concentrating it on a select few students, like spreading radioactive dust over the entire state rather than concentrating it in one acre. Yeah, that will really solve the problem.

If the teacher cannot teach; having them buddy up is not going to solve the problem. As a highly effective teacher, I do not want to be shackled with an incompetent, because that only waters down my effectiveness. In essence, you are creating for me a problem that I now have to solve.

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Been there; done that.

How do you know so much about who is a good teacher and who is a bad one?

Again, you are resorting to an ad hominem argument.

So let me turn this around: Are you saying that you are incapable of distinguishing good teaching practices from bad? How do you gauge your own teaching effectiveness, or are you just teaching blind? How can anyone accept a critique of their teaching if we are all incapable of identifying ineffective teaching practices?

Have you spent that much time in the other teacher's classroom, or are you judging them by second and third hand accounts?

I have stepped into more classroom sessions than probably anyone on this board. You would be shocked at what I have seen. (But would you care?)

[t tuttle]

Why don't you just answer the question instead of giving the question a latin name and asking one of your own?

[Jane Doe]

"What percentage of the popululation are thieves? Probably 1%. But when we find someone stealing, we take action, don't we?"

Remember what we are discussing. Don't lose yourself in the analogies. If you are saying that one teacher out of one hundred is a bad teacher, would you really remove protection from injustice from the other 99?

Maybe you understand how the military can go into a neighborhood full of suffering and dying people and focus their attentions and weapons on percieved looters.

Do try not to throw the baby out with the wash. Your concern for the children is admirable, but take it from a mother, they will survive the experience of a year with these teachers who you so despise.

You remind me of my brother who always complained what terrible parents we had. It took him years to realize that they had kept him alive for 20 years and that he had never been abused. So maybe ours weren't the best parents, and maybe the teachers you despise aren't the best, but are they striking these students? Are they molesting them? Certainly the law deals with teachers who are "bad" in these ways. And keep in mind, that while education is mandatory, parents do have options. If I were a parent of a student of these "bad teachers" I would take action.

Due process or not, any teacher who racks up parent complaints will be let go in every school I have experience with.

Maybe your problem is with a particular administration's lack of responsiveness to parents complaints. Or are you the only one complaining? Either way, eliminating teacher protections hardly seems an appropriate solution to your, 1% (I suspect this is an inflated estimate) "bad teacher" problem.

Also, you simply must stop pretending there are no arguements against your anti-due process stance. You have been arguing with your opponents quite extensively. If they have no arguement, what are you arguing against? I guess we are in the class of those who should be eliminated were Lisa queen.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Why don't you just answer the question instead of giving the question a latin name and asking one of your own?

Because the question focuses on me rather than the issue.

And the ad hominem approach is a fallacy. So why use it?

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Remember what we are discussing. Don't lose yourself in the analogies.

I would suggest you heed your own advice, since you initiated the analogy. And speaking of such, your analogy was off because you assumed that you were the only one affected by the plane crashing, so that you could speak for all others when determining whether or not you should be searched. But there are other people on board, aren't there?

Your concern for the children is admirable, but take it from a mother, they will survive the experience of a year with these teachers who you so despise.

Two problems with your response:

1. Students are only in the second grade ONCE in their lives. I cannot believe that the teaching profession (and motherhood) has stooped to the level of dismissing an entire year's worth of education. They will survive?!?! The skills they need in third grade often depend on what they learned in second grade. I am not going to "take it from a mother" because the mother is wrong.

This is how we are supposed to parent? If our kids' teachers are lousy, we are supposed to just say, "Oh, they will surive"? I can't believe this!

2. Your statement about me despising these teachers is a straw man -- the issue here is not my attitude towards these teachers, but rather the damage they do. Again, this is another appeal to the ad hominem.

You remind me of my brother...

I don't want to get into your family life. Families are regarded much differently than classrooms, so the two are not analogous.

Due process or not, any teacher who racks up parent complaints will be let go in every school I have experience with.

That is an appeal to wishful thinking. You need to experience a school district where this is not the case. If your school district routinely fires incompetent teachers, regardless of their tenure, then my criticisms are not directed at your district.

Maybe your problem is with a particular administration's lack of responsiveness to parents complaints. Or are you the only one complaining? Either way, eliminating teacher protections hardly seems an appropriate solution to your, 1% (I suspect this is an inflated estimate) "bad teacher" problem.

1% is inflated? Hardly. You need to step into some classrooms and look around. Ineffective teaching practices are everywhere.

Also, you simply must stop pretending there are no arguements against your anti-due process stance.

Huh? What are you talking about?

And "anti-due process" is another straw man. I never said I was against due process. I think a teacher's habitual ineffectiveness should be brought to their attention and the teacher given all opportunities to improve and defend themselves. When have I said otherwise?

But my opponents in this forum are advocating a position that no one should be allowed to judge the effectiveness of the teacher and his/her willingness to improve. Also, they make the claim that incompetence should not be a basis for dismissal. I don't consider that due process, but rather a license to be lousy. And damn right I oppose it.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Due process or not, any teacher who racks up parent complaints will be let go in every school I have experience with.

By the way, do you see how inconsistent you are with your argumentation? On one hand, you claim that teachers should be protected from the judgments of others regarding teaching quality. On the other hand, you suggest my arguments are invalid because the district already routinely dismisses teachers based on the judgments of parents.

You either agree with me or you don't. If you don't, then why are you trumping the actions of your district when it appears to violate your own principles?

[Roger Rex]

I am a teacher in the State of California. We do not have tenure here, but "due process." Despite all the rhetoric, any teacher can be terminated for incompetence.
I doubt very much whether Lisa, or any teacher, wants the law changed so that any administrator can fire any teacher any time without proving just cause.
I point this out because this discussion, which is fascinating, seems to have gotten a bit muddied.
It sounds like Lisa works for a singularly ineffective district. This can be very frustrating for a teacher who cares intensely about the quality of her site. I have a hard time believing she wants to do away with teacher protections and I think the charges of "scab" are a bit harsh.
Were I surrounded by incompetent teachers who refuse to adapt to the needs of the students (I think this is a better working definition than the inflamatory "bad teacher") I would take my concerns up the ranks.
Begin with confrontiing the teachers. Then go to the principal. Then the superintendent. Then the parents. If all that fails, which seems unlikely, I would seek help from my union. Lobbying against the legal protection offered by the state would be the last resort I should take.
Some teachers work in districts where fine teachers have been persecuted for issues not at all related to teaching quality. Different experiences in these areas yield diffferent concerns. We all have our own crosses to bear. I hope that none of us wants to remove the few legal protections our profession offers. We don't have tenure. Teachers can be fired, just not lightly over personal or political issues.

[Letitia L.]

The only people I've ever met who are against due process are people who don't like teachers. Why don't people like teachers? Certainly not because some of them are ineffective. There is a clear anti education bias in our country that is presently being fostered by politicians. For those who want absolute control over the democratic process, teachers are loose cannons. Removing due process while electing anti education school board members is sytemactically declaring war on free internchange of ideas in the classroom. No teacher should want to jeopardize our entire profession with the feeble excuse of going after a few bad apples. You are right to worry about protecting students from uncaring teachers. But consider the scenario where all the teachers in your district represent extreme religious positions that are against science, literature, art, free expression, and the democratic ideals that are the cornerstone of public education. These people have already hijacked the federal government. Some districts and states have already fallen into their clutches. Unless you want to teach under the Christian equivalent of the Ayatolla, you should reconsider your attack on teacher protections.
Whenever we object to the takeover of democracy by religious nuts, they hide behind the same trite rhetorical chliches. Some of you are dangersously close to those methods of propaganda.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

I am a teacher in the State of California. We do not have tenure here, but "due process." Despite all the rhetoric, any teacher can be terminated for incompetence.

That is true at the college levels, too... IN THEORY. But in practice, getting rid of a teacher for incompetence is damn hard. If it was truly that simple, I wouldn't be here arguing about it.

Tenure is under attack in many states. When an concept is under attack, one of the responses is to claim the issue is moot because the concept doesn't exist. To say that California does not have tenure is very misleading. No profession (other than the Supreme Court) has tenure according to your definition. But obviously something magicial must happen after the seventh year of teaching within a district. The California Education Code even uses the term tenure to describe this term of employment.

Consider the following statement by Joseph Knowles in The Education Code:

"Teachers' tenure was made a part of the law by amendment to the Political Code.[Stats.1921, C. 878, p. 1663.]" http://www.sandiego.edu/lrc/education_code.html

Even the NEA disagrees with you:

http://www2.nea.org/he/tenure.html

I doubt very much whether Lisa, or any teacher, wants the law changed so that any administrator can fire any teacher any time without proving just cause.
I point this out because this discussion, which is fascinating, seems to have gotten a bit muddied.
It sounds like Lisa works for a singularly ineffective district. This can be very frustrating for a teacher who cares intensely about the quality of her site. I have a hard time believing she wants to do away with teacher protections and I think the charges of "scab" are a bit harsh.

Sounds like a fair assessment of my argument.

Were I surrounded by incompetent teachers who refuse to adapt to the needs of the students (I think this is a better working definition than the inflamatory "bad teacher") I would take my concerns up the ranks.
Begin with confrontiing the teachers. Then go to the principal. Then the superintendent. Then the parents. If all that fails, which seems unlikely, I would seek help from my union.

Help from the union? Who do you think has been protecting the teacher all along?

Sure, if the union sided with the district in ridding the classrooms of these teachers, my arguments would be totally moot. I wouldn't have even brought it up. But our union once tried to prevent us from attending faculty development training. It also considers in-class observations some sort of evil intrusion, which to me is ludicrous.

My argument is simple: Unions should fight for that which helps the teaching profession. Better wages? Sure. Lighter work loads? In many instances, absolutely! The right to be horrible? Hell no! The right to spurn development training? No way. The right to no oversight or accountability. Sorry, but I am not going to fight for those "protections." (And if that makes me a bad union member, then that makes me a bad union member.)

[taho buddha]

Too bad the unions can't get rid of bad members as easily as schools can.

[Roger Rex]

Can we assume that you went through the ranks then? You approached the parents about the bad teaching going on in the school and they were: a. disinterested; b. befuddled; c. ineffective. You skipped right over this point, but I think it is crucial to the issue.
Parents truly hold all the cards, though many don't know the power they possess. A teacher who is not teaching could find herself teaching to an empty classroom if parents were concerned.
Do you truly belong to a district that ignores scores of angry parents shouting their disapproval at Board Meetings? Do not families still sue when abuses are left unaddressed?

[Letitia L.]

Quote "Students are only in the second grade ONCE in their lives. I cannot believe that the teaching profession (and motherhood) has stooped to the level of dismissing an entire year's worth of education."

Oops. I thought we were in a high school forum. Do you teach high school and are concerned about 2nd grade teachers? Or the other way around?

If you teach in an elementary school, then you probably should address that level of teachers, I am sure reactions would differ, since, as you point out, a 2nd grade teacher can certainly do more damage than a 12th grade typing teacher.

I've seen Ray Bradbury speak several times and every time he says "Fire all the first grade teachers." He's serious. Of course he probably hasn't been in a classroom for 50 years, but I think he would agree with you heartily. Tough sell, your issue, for high school teachers who really do have political issues to deal with.

If you decide to switch forums, let me know, I'd be interested to see what the other 2nd grade teachers have to say about your idea of removing due process.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Can we assume that you went through the ranks then? You approached the parents about the bad teaching going on in the school and they were: a. disinterested; b. befuddled; c. ineffective. You skipped right over this point, but I think it is crucial to the issue.

I don't have the authority to call parents and initiate unrest. Any teacher doing would be considered subversive by the district, and rightfully so. It would probably get my principal fired.

By the way, another inconsistency is now cropping up. We have been told that no one should judge teachers because we don't have a definitive standard for excellent teaching, but now we are expecting parents to carry the mantle for us, as if they know any more about excellent teaching than we do.

Parents truly hold all the cards, though many don't know the power they possess. A teacher who is not teaching could find herself teaching to an empty classroom if parents were concerned.

Under no circumstances would I ever advocate parents keeping their kids out of class.

Do you truly belong to a district that ignores scores of angry parents shouting their disapproval at Board Meetings? Do not families still sue when abuses are left unaddressed?

You're not going to get scores of angry parents showing up at a board meeting to denounce ineffective teaching here. You might get them to show up over some civil rights issue, but not teaching.

The problem with your idea is that there is no single, definable event surrounding bad teaching that will rally parents. Bad teaching doesn't produce heart attacks, just a slow cancer.

Sorry, but your idea about an angry mob with pitch forks and torches is idealistic. Sure, I would love it if it happened, but it simply isn't. Not around here.

[teacher76]

The people of this country (and California) had better wake up before our democracy entirely disappears. These rat bastard fascists who stole the 2000 election, gave billions back to the top 2%, drove us into an illegal and unjustified war with complete disregard for international law, are trying to crush the world beneath the heel of privatization for everything (read money grab for thieves and friends of the administration, Haliburton, Bechtel, KBR, Enron, etc.).

These scum-****************ing hypocrites of the Christian Taliban pushed for the No Child Left Behind Act and then purposely underfunded it so that it would fail--and in many instances it has. These un-American, 21st century Nazis want the educational system to fail so they can get their precious vouchers to pay billions more in tax dollars to the Ayatollah Pat Robertsons who seem to think that socialist sytems that try to take care of their people are a threat to our way of life--if only they would live theirs lives like the man they so vehemently profess to worship! (and by the way, if he had said someone should kill the president of the U.S. instead of Venezuela, he'd probably be behind bars but it's okay to say things like that about leaders of socialist leaning countries--and after all, we do consider every other third world country's natural resources ours).

Arnold's plan is to do an end-run around democracy and steal it from the working people. Teachers, firefighters, policmen, nurses, and other healthcare providers are the new targets--lazy, overpaid cancers on society according to his dogma and actions. He wants to: 1. limit unions' political power 2. extend tenure-granting period so that teachers will keep their mouths shut 3. let three retired judges draw redistricting lines instead of our elected representatives (yes, we all know how judges are above partisan politics--we saw them in action in the 2000 election with the Supreme Court Coup d'etat)

Does someone have to spell it out for America?

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Oops. I thought we were in a high school forum. Do you teach high school and are concerned about 2nd grade teachers? Or the other way around?

I'm concerned about teaching at all levels. Are you?

If you teach in an elementary school, then you probably should address that level of teachers, I am sure reactions would differ, since, as you point out, a 2nd grade teacher can certainly do more damage than a 12th grade typing teacher.

What about a ninth grade Algebra I teacher? Is her job important? Very convenient example (12th grade typing) you posted. Did you really think I wouldn't see it?

I deleted the rambling dialogue about Ray Bradbury. I have no idea what he has to do with this issue, nor do I care.

Oh, I have taught at the middle school, high school, and college levels. And I post in all forums here, even Kindergarten. Look 'em up.

[Roger Rex]

Why in the world would you worry about getting your principal fired? This is the person who allows the people you've been railing against to continue their misconduct? I just don't get that at all. Loyalty to the principal over the students?

Of course I wasn't advocating keeping children out of class. Do you live in such a small town that there is only one Algebra class in one High School? No home teaching?

You dismissed team teaching rather out of hand I thought.

No wonder you are upset. It appears you've cut off all avenues of effective action in favor a political solution that could only succeed by destroying what is left of teacher protection against arbitrary firing.

Parents don't seem to object to these teachers you have targeted. If you are alone in this blame game, you might start considering some of the arguements presented here.

[Leticia]

Quote - If you are alone in this blame game, you might start considering some of the arguements presented here.

In several places, the person you are addressing states that she deleted without reading or refused to read a paragraph dealing with an example she found distasteful. I think we've all given this individual our best shot at persuasion. She seems, as R. states to be advocating without any real regard for any other point of view but her own. No wonder she can't get along with the other teachers at her site! What an angry, bitter person!

[B Just]

The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement... We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, September 27, 1993

Pat Robertson hires "public relations" agents to infiltrate sites such as this one to try and subvert teacher unity against this takeover, which begins with destroying teacher protections like "tenure" which is really due process.

If those of you who have been arguing against this idealogue want to make a difference, follow it around the web site and challenge it wherever you find it. (I say it because we are dealing with corporate entities here, not individuals with thinking, caring responses).

You think I'm being paranoid? Just open your eyes and look.

[C. Edgar]

Lisa Hot.. rather blatantly infers that typing is not an important subject in comparison with Algebra.

I am a 58 year old man who entered teaching as a second career. Most of the jobs I had before I opened my own business were jobs that required typing. I often told people it was the only skill I learned in high school that actually proved useful.

Stop being so judgemental against other teachers! It shows in many small ways how full of contempt for us you are.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Why in the world would you worry about getting your principal fired? This is the person who allows the people you've been railing against to continue their misconduct? I just don't get that at all. Loyalty to the principal over the students?

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions, mostly based on how things operate in your district. Let me just say that the principal is one of my major allies. Maybe at your school the principal can simply fire anyone he or she wishes, but not here.

Of course I wasn't advocating keeping children out of class. Do you live in such a small town that there is only one Algebra class in one High School? No home teaching?

First of all, I only used algebra as a hypothetical example in a previous post.

I think you need to quit being so idealistic. How would dumping the children from one class into another solve this problem? Do you think that is fair to the other teachers -- they get more students while the rotten teacher has a lighter grading load?

You dismissed team teaching rather out of hand I thought.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding of team teaching. Explain your version of team teaching and how it would solve this problem. My gut feeling is that your solution will only spread the teacher's incompetence out over a wider area.

No wonder you are upset. It appears you've cut off all avenues of effective action..

Effective action? Asking parents to teach their kids at home is a solution? This is HIGH SCHOOL. Almost none of the parents in this area are even close to being able to teach at this level.

Dumping the kids onto the other teachers is a solution?

Parents don't seem to object to these teachers you have targeted.

You don't know that. You are assuming that simply because I stated that the parents were not going to rally at a board membership. And you also assume that parents are trained evaluators of teaching talent. They are not. And there is no way to organize such a rally without becoming subversive to the district. Do you really think that any teacher is going to call parents behind another teacher's back? That can get someone sued.

So far, your suggestions comprise:

1. Dumping the kids onto the other teachers.
2. Making the parents teach the kids.
3. Team teaching (which you need to clarify).
4. Subversively organizing unrest behind the teacher's back.

If I have mischaracterized your solutions, please let me know. I'll wait on #3, but so far your ideas are worthless to me in my situation.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Lisa Hot.. rather blatantly infers that typing is not an important subject in comparison with Algebra.

The State does too. They don't even test typing as part of the CST. Care to explain why?

But I was referring to the TEACHING of typing, not the discipline itself. Teaching typing is nowhere near as difficult as teaching algebra because it is mostly a mechanical skill. And if that hurts your feelings, too bad.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement... We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, September 27, 1993

Pat Robertson hires "public relations" agents to infiltrate sites such as this one...

Ha! ha! ha! ha! ha!!!! The personal attacks continue. Anyone that opposes tenure must be a Right-wing Bible thumper. Oh, ho!!

Read my posts on evolution before you accuse me of being a Right-wing nut job.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

In several places, the person you are addressing states that she deleted without reading or refused to read a paragraph dealing with an example she found distasteful.

I don't recall saying that I refused to read it, only that I refused to respond. And I clearly stated my reasons for refusing to respond. So you are incorrect.

I think we've all given this individual our best shot at persuasion.

So far your bests shots appear to be...

1. Calling me names (scab, and so on)
2. Personal attacks (my favorite was the Pat Robertson post, but I liked how you called me a angry, bitter person in this post.)

She seems, as R. states to be advocating without any real regard for any other point of view but her own. No wonder she can't get along with the other teachers at her site! What an angry, bitter person!

I get along fine with everyone at my school. When did I suggest otherwise?

Man, you love to jump to conclusions.

[Roger Rex]

Quote: So far, your suggestions comprise:

1. Dumping the kids onto the other teachers.
2. Making the parents teach the kids.
3. Team teaching (which you need to clarify).
4. Subversively organizing unrest behind the teacher's back

You are not being purposely obtuse I hope.

I said nothing about dumping. You would not send your child to a dentist who ruins their teeth unless he were the only dentist. (Roofer is you wish). It would surprise me that if ten parents refused to allow their children to be taught by one of your "bad teachers" they would soon be shown the door.

I am amazed that you find working within the system "subversive" but going against your union and teacher protection admirable behavior.

We are talking about teachers who are, by your definition, doing irreparable harm to their students, are we not?

From what I gather from this forum and other venues, this is a localized problem. Most people seem to feel the teachers are doing a good job, and polls bear that out. (Bush wishes he had our approval ratings._

Surely parents must be aware if their children are attending classes with bad teaching. If parents complain, the administration of the school and district have the responsibility to retrain or fire the offending teacher. The existing laws have no delicacy about firing a teacher universally disliked by parents. It happens every day. Due process does not protect teachers who teach badly. It does require managment to make a case. Otherwise we will wind up with vigilantism and kangaroo courts that made the teacher protection laws necessary.

Team teaching at our school means that five teachers have the same 32 students in their classes. We meet regularly to help one another deal with issues that come up and to discuss curricullum, lesson plans, adherance to standards, etc. Struggling teachers do better in team environments. I can give you more information, but the studies are out there.

I admire your loyalty to the principal, but wonder why you extend your loyalty upward and not laterally. Our experiences in dealing with struggling teachers is that they are far more likely to respond to help than to cricitism. If you have administrators who allow bad teaching to continue, I think you should consider that supporting such shoddy management is counterproductive. Why would you support that?

The more we converse, the less you convince me that the problems you are experiencing can be changed by removing teacher protection laws. We live in a Democracy - a free society where the price we pay by definition is that in order to protect the innocent, we run the risk of some guilty parties slipping through the system

The system we have works if parents, teachers, administrators carry out their part. It doesn't take all parents or teachers, only a few, if the administrators are willing to take them seriously and do the job of management. We don't need to remove teacher protection. I am sorry the existing laws are not working in your district. I know of municipalities where citizens refuse to help police, but we cannot change state laws to allow police to torture any citizen just because the law doesn't work in noncooperative communities.

I've given you some concrete ways to address the issue. Is that what you want? Or do you simply want to go on living with the problem and ranting against teacher protection laws? The laws are not going to be changed, as Mr. Schawartznegger will soon discover at his political peril. The system is not perfect, but it works.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

I said nothing about dumping. You would not send your child to a dentist who ruins their teeth unless he were the only dentist. (Roofer is you wish). It would surprise me that if ten parents refused to allow their children to be taught by one of your "bad teachers" they would soon be shown the door.

Again, expecting the parents to take action is not a solution. The whole notion that parents should solve our problems is absurd.

Parents don't get to pick their kids' teachers anyway, so your suggestions simply will not work. Even if parents had that power, it is completely unfair to burden the best teachers with the most kids and, in so doing, lightening the workload of the worst teachers. Your solution would be as bad as the original problem.

Besides, the parents in my region all work. They don't step into the classrooms, so they have no first-hand knowledge of the poor instruction. But we do.

Why aren't teachers establishing their own standards and enforcing them? The AMA certainly does. The ABA does. If a doctor is performing badly, do we just tell the patients that it is up to them? Do we just say, "If the doctor is so bad, patients will quit going to him." The same applies to lawyers.

I am amazed that you find working within the system "subversive" but going against your union and teacher protection admirable behavior.

If I work at IBM and I see one of my fellow colleagues screwing a client over, under no circumstances would I call that client and inform them. My manager would fire me, and deservedly so.

We are talking about teachers who are, by your definition, doing irreparable harm to their students, are we not?

Absolutely, and I seek a solution where teachers are not required to engage in underhanded activity that pits them against their own employers.

From what I gather from this forum and other venues, this is a localized problem. Most people seem to feel the teachers are doing a good job, and polls bear that out.

Link?

But again, teachers have already come in here and stated that teaching effectiveness cannot be judged, and now we are suggesting that parents are qualified judges of teaching effectiveness. Are they or aren't they?

Surely parents must be aware if their children are attending classes with bad teaching. If parents complain, the administration of the school and district have the responsibility to retrain or fire the offending teacher. The existing laws have no delicacy about firing a teacher universally disliked by parents.

Again, most parents in my district do not understand effective teaching. How many parents have stepped into your classroom and watched you teach?

Team teaching at our school means that five teachers have the same 32 students in their classes.

Is Ms. Crappy Teacher ever teaching students in this plan? If so, how can this possibly be a solution?

I admire your loyalty to the principal, but wonder why you extend your loyalty upward and not laterally.

Because the principal doesn't deserve it. Furthermore, our working relation extends far greater than the matter of the teachers we both agree are abominable. Right now we are working on a program to bring local writers to our school to talk to seniors. I am not going to jeopardize a program like that, and I am amazed that you think I should.

Our experiences in dealing with struggling teachers is that they are far more likely to respond to help than to cricitism.

Okay, but now you are describing a STRUGGLING teacher. I am not talking about struggling teachers, but rather those who refuse to respond to help. Those aren't struggling; they're simply bad.

If you have administrators who allow bad teaching to continue, I think you should consider that supporting such shoddy management is counterproductive. Why would you support that?

Loaded question. I never said I SUPPORTED such management, only that I have to deal with the realities of such management.

The more we converse, the less you convince me that the problems you are experiencing can be changed by removing teacher protection laws.

The more we converse, the more you convince me that you don't have any answers. Every suggestion you offer either pits the concerned teacher against his employer, pushes the responsiblity onto parents, or ends up ruining a professional relationship between a concerned teacher and a concerned principal.

It is easy for you to sit down and tell someone else to go over a principal's head and put the principal's job in jeopardy. Or to begin calling parents behind a teacher's back and initiating unrest. Or simply wait for parents to peform the action we should have been doing all along.

We live in a Democracy - a free society where the price we pay by definition is that in order to protect the innocent, we run the risk of some guilty parties slipping through the system

Protecting incompetence is not protecting the innocent. Sorry, but I don't see the connection. If a teacher is shoddy and refuses to get better, they should be replaced no matter how long they have been teaching. If you agree, then we can end this discussion right here.

I've given you some concrete ways to address the issue.

Concrete, but completely impractical.

[Unregistered]

I am looking for differnt opinions about teacher salaries. how can I get a copy or information about this. I also need the requirments to become a teacher. What were you asked in order to become a teacher.
Do a google search for the North Carolina Department of Public instruction for salaries in NC.

[Barry Trudeau]

I've been reading these many pages of dialogue. What a great discussion.
The person who is against teacher tenure (or due process?) doesn't really seem to be listening to anyone though. I thought some of the writers did a pretty fair job of trying to explain, but she seems to be one of those people who would rather complain about other teachers than look for solutions. The parents don't seem to think the teachers are bad teachers, and whatever anyone says, they are the ones who call the shots. She doesn't think parents are smart enough to figure it out. Boy, she should check out my district! If a teacher sneezes on Tuesday parents call it in on Wednesday.
She wants teachers to judge other teachers? I guess she thinks she'll be the one who'll be doing the judging. If I was her principal that sorehead would be the first person I'd fire when tenure gets thrown out.

[Roger Rex]

Gee, you don't give parents much credit. Teachers either. I take it you have really taken a shine to your boss though. Hmmm.

Sorry if that seems like a low blow, but I thought I very patiently laid out some ways to deal with your situation, and you've managed to dismiss them all without much consideration. I guess you are not really interested in other points of view.

Don't bother responding, I'm looking for more of an open minded forum.
Goodbye to all.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Sorry if that seems like a low blow, but I thought I very patiently laid out some ways to deal with your situation, and you've managed to dismiss them all without much consideration.

In other words, your team-teaching idea did in fact have the rotten teacher teaching the kids, didn't it?

Will I get an answer? Probably not. Why? Because the answer is probably "yes."

I asked for a solution, and you said "team teaching"... with absolutely no elaboration. I asked for clarification (which I shouldn't have to do), and your response said nothing about how the team teaching was going to correct the problem. So I asked, "Is the rotten teacher still going to be teaching the kids?" Silence.

Does team teaching have its place? Absolutely. As you said, it is especially good for new teachers. But it isn't going to solve this problem. Now if you want to call that narrow-minded, then be my guest.

I'm done with this discussion as well. I am fed up with the low blows, cheap shots, insults, personal attacks, straw mans, and red herrings. But I guess that is the best we can do.

[Unregistered]

Wow, this person seems like a bit of a hypocrite. She tells others not to assume anything about herself, but then goes on to assume stuff about others.

[Unregistered]

have to be payed so little

Maybe because we can't spell paid....come on people!

[Unregistered]

Quote: "...have to be payed so little..."

Maybe because we can't spell paid....come on people!

[Unregistered]

Well, screw you and the horse you rode in on.[/QUOTE]

No thank you, but you may wish to address my horse.

If you discuss any subject with a lunatic long enough, sooner or later the madness ends the discussion.

Imagine a teacher who thinks she's so special that she is the yardstick to measure the rest of her profession by. Follow her through this web site as she insults, denigrates, and subverts our profession.

Shame. As if you think this attack on tenure just at the moment when the Gubernator's "special election" takes aim at our protections is coincidental. Make no mistake, the right will never rest until education is controlled, not be the individual teacher, but by them. Lisa Hotflake's essential distrust for teachers as individuals is a thinly disguised attack on freedom. She would no doubt call it the freedom to be a bad teacher, but those who would centralize power have used that arguement since the birth of democracy and will keep on harping till they have killed it.

Everytime a sincere teacher gives her solid reasons for protecting tenure or solutions to her "bad teachers" outside of removing teacher protections, she pretends those arguements are weak or unimportant. Just another way of discounting any point of view that doesn't go along with the one she espouses.

Excuse me L.H. but your motive is showing.

[Unregistered]

teachers are wankers

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Shame. As if you think this attack on tenure just at the moment when the Gubernator's "special election" takes aim at our protections is coincidental.

Nothing new here.

[mneill]

I agree with that last post! Problem is, it's difficult to quantify who is effective and who is not! I am all for more accountability in our profession, but I also realize that it's not always fair to judge a teacher on the immediate achievement of his or her students. I feel that I do some unbelievable things in my classroom and I often work harder than I need to, but except for my students it often goes unnoticed. It's frustrating, but you do this job because you want to make the world a better place! At least that is why I do it!!!

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

Problem is, it's difficult to quantify who is effective and who is not! I am all for more accountability in our profession, but I also realize that it's not always fair to judge a teacher on the immediate achievement of his or her students.

It doesn't need to be solely based on student achievement; although at some point student achievement needs to be factored in. But we call ourselves professionals, yet we apparently have no standards, are completely unable to evaluate our own profession, and are incapable of taking action when a change needs to take place.

[Benchmarker]

..we call ourselves professionals, yet we apparently have no standards, are completely unable to evaluate our own profession, and are incapable of taking action when a change needs to take place.

Who are these teacher haters on this web site?

What profession are you so enthralled with? Doctors? How many MD's do you suppose had their lisence yanked by the AMA last year? Check into it, teacher basher, the only ones they expunge are the ones the cops get first.

Or do you think Lawyers are better at patroling their ranks than we are?

Reality is, taking on teaching is like long distance swimming, if someone stinks, they'll sink pretty quick on their own. Unless the site is administered by total dullards, teachers are fired far more frequently than any other profession. Look up the facts before you start running us down.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

How many MD's do you suppose had their lisence yanked by the AMA last year? Check into it, teacher basher...

If you already checked into it, then would already have known the number and would have posted it.

Look up the facts before you start running us down.

It is your responsibility to post the facts that support your assertion, not for me to hunt them down for you.

Reality is, taking on teaching is like long distance swimming, if someone stinks, they'll sink pretty quick on their own.

How quick is quick? And define "sink."

Rather than swimming or sinking, they can just float on by. Right?

[Benchmarker]

according to New York Times:" Of the 2,774 doctors who had made payments in five or more malpractice cases, only 463 – one out of six was disciplined.”

Really, does one need to present you with a thesis to get you to stop pretending you have all the answers?

How many sources would you need cited before you would apologize for attacking our profession publicly?

I looked back at your earlier postings, and you've been going on about how we should be more like the AMA for some time. Did you just pull that analogy out of your purse to denigrate the teacher organizations?

[Unregistered]

Lisa is the shock jock of this site. She tries to rattle as many cages as possible, taking stances just to excite controversy. Don't rise to her bait; it just encourages her. Visit any web site with a forum like this and you will find people making the widest, unsupported arguements with the Fox News Commentator fake intellectual posture as logic put downs you're seeing here. I think people like Rush and Lisa start out as desperately lonely rejects who only get attention by getting a rise out of normal people who normally wouldn't talk with them. If you give them a platform,you create a monster.

[Lisa's Hotscakes]

It's funny how you want others to ignore me, but then respond to my every post.

So once again, here goes:

ROAR!!!!

Actually, I am a teacher who has strong opinions about how we should teach students. I'm just less diplomatic about sharing my ideas. I figure we are all adults; we should be able to handle a little controversy.

So why am I hounded? Well...

1. I have a readily identifiable screen name, so posters can analyze the pattern in my posts. It would be easy for me to post as Unregistered and fly below the radar, but that isn't my style.

2. I have a no-excuses stance on most issues surrounding education. If our students fail, that is a reflection on us just as much as on them. Students don't often do homework because we didn't do our job well enough. Students act up in class because we often employ teaching strategies that allow such behavior to surface, and so on.

3. The nature of written communication makes it hard for anyon