Teacher Salary [Archive] - Teachnology Teacher Forum

Babe in Teaching

09-17-2005, 09:19 PM

I am shocked from reading some of the posts. I used to be a pharmacist working in one of the most profitable drug store chains in the country making 3 times as much as a teacher with a bachelors degree. However, after all the money I made in the world, I still was not satisfied in my career. My workload was much heavier than any teacher's ( try filling 300 prescriptions in one shift standing on your feet for 8 hours, listening to people complain about their insurance is too high, or doctors who are too busy to consult with you about a patient's prescription). As a graduate student working on my third professional degree, it is upsetting to read comments from educators who are responsible for the education of our children. It saddens me that the focus of some teachers is fueled by money motivation. In other words, perhaps, some of you teachers will be more intentional teachers if you made as much as the average pharmacist ($95,000) and just might actually care about our students' futures. The reason why I chose teaching as a profession has nothing to do with how much money I would make. I love to teach because I love children- I would teach for free. The concern I have for the teachers of 2005 new or tenured is whether you are teaching to help a student achieve higher education or just in it for the money. If you never made more than what you are making at this moment, will you punish your students by not teaching to your fullest potential? In other words, are you teachers intentional teachers or ineffective teachers? An intentional teacher is a teacher whose sole purpose is to properly educate students.

b just

09-17-2005, 11:07 PM

You're right. Teaching should be a pastime for the moneyed few who can afford to work for free.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-18-2005, 12:06 AM

Never work without tenure.

Do you extend the same logic to roofers, landscapers, and mechanics? Suppose someone told you that they would roof your house only if you were not allowed to fire them. Would you hire such a roofer?

As far as wage slavery goes, the best way to lower wages is to promise security instead. If I know a worker is unwilling to leave because they have tenure, why would I give this worker a raise?

By the way, I am not and have never been an administrator.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-18-2005, 12:14 AM

Not everyone who posts here is a teacher. Some are administrators who hate tenure and love to spread the propaganda about experience not the same as qualified.

I think everyone acknowledges that being experienced is not the same as being qualified, so why are you calling it propaganda? Do you espouse to the philosophy that experience and quality are the same?

Another question: Should incompetence be grounds for dismissal?

Unregistered

09-18-2005, 09:31 AM

Lisa, I take offense to your comment that veteran teachers are the poorest teachers. I don't know where you come from but I have been teaching for 22 years and can honestly say that I am probably just as dedicatd now as I was when I started or perhaps even more so.
The biggest problem in teaching is parents not being held accountable for the actions of their children. Call a parent to tell them about child's poor behavior and their response all too often, is "What did you do to him/her?"
Our mayor and chancellor have no clue as to what it's really like in a classroom ... it's harder than ever to deal with disruptive children. They threaten you .... sometimes but not very often get suspended,
but then are put right back in the same class. Their peers see this and think, "oh I can do that too and not get in trouble." Students today have little or no respect for anything.
Brooklyn Teacher

Unregistered

09-18-2005, 09:56 AM

I am looking for differnt opinions about teacher salaries. how can I get a copy or information about this. I also need the requirments to become a teacher. What were you asked in order to become a teacher.

you can always google the state or disctrict that you're looking into and normally they have the salary step schedule posted on the districts website. either way teachers get paid way too little for the amount of work that we do! i'm a first year teacher and i enjoy teaching and the kids and all but there's also a great deal of paper pushing, conferences, lunch/morning duty, preparing lessons, grading papers, and calling parents that consumes prep periods and time outside of work. i love it though!

b just

09-18-2005, 11:40 AM

If you can't see the difference between a profession (vocation) like teaching and a low skill job like roofing, I don't think I can help you understand the importance of tenure. If you are a teacher, you need to research the history of our profession because your misshappen attitudes border on betrayal.
Still, here it is in brief: teachers live in the world of ideals, a world that must remain unsullied by power brokers holding advancement or financial gain (or loss of job) as a reward or punishment.
By the way, all this talk about getting rid of bad teachers is nonsense. Like stand up comics, teachers who bomb pay the price on their stage. Unless you are referring to "bad" teachers who don't subscribe to your narrow relgious agenda.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-18-2005, 12:47 PM

Lisa, I take offense to your comment that veteran teachers are the poorest teachers.

I said that they CAN BE the poorest teachers. I see little correlation between years of experience and the quality of teaching. It may be there, but it certainly is not obvious.

I don't know where you come from but I have been teaching for 22 years and can honestly say that I am probably just as dedicatd now as I was when I started or perhaps even more so.

Dedication is only a small part of the equation. And you cannot consider yourself representative of all veteran teachers.

The biggest problem in teaching is parents not being held accountable for the actions of their children. Call a parent to tell them about child's poor behavior and their response all too often, is "What did you do to him/her?"

Behavior problems are largely a result of substandard teaching methods, in my experience.

Our mayor and chancellor have no clue as to what it's really like in a classroom ... it's harder than ever to deal with disruptive children. They threaten you .... sometimes but not very often get suspended, but then are put right back in the same class. Their peers see this and think, "oh I can do that too and not get in trouble." Students today have little or no respect for anything.

Certain teachers are better at commanding respect. Pure and simple. If your students do not respect you, then maybe you need to bring in a teaching coach to watch your classroom and recommend changes in your teaching strategy.

For example, some teachers call on raised hands after asking questions. (Do you?) These same teachers have been at it for 20 years and wonder why their kids act up and appear disinterested in the learning process. In this situation, the parents are right--the teacher's instructional strategy is causing much of the problem. But how can that be if the teacher is so experienced? The answer is simple: There is little correlation between experience and quality.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-18-2005, 12:54 PM

If you can't see the difference between a profession (vocation) like teaching and a low skill job like roofing, I don't think I can help you understand the importance of tenure.

Okay, let's consider a "skilled" profession like law. Is there tenure in law? What about medicine?

By the way, all this talk about getting rid of bad teachers is nonsense. Like stand up comics, teachers who bomb pay the price on their stage. Unless you are referring to "bad" teachers who don't subscribe to your narrow relgious agenda.

Some teachers don't care if they bomb on stage. And you miss the most important issue of all: It isn't the teachers that pay the price, is it? Who pays the ultimate price for bad teaching? Can you answer that question.

Your response is precisely why I oppose tenure. Your attitude that (to paraphrase) "Well, if a teacher ****************s they will pay the price..." completely misses the point of education. The kids are the ones that pay, not the teacher. Even if the teacher's life ends in misery, of what consolation is that to the kids and parents??

BTW, you need to craft better arguments than the blatantly ad hominem. (Betrayal? Religious? Give me a break.)

So answer the question: Should incompetence be a basis for dismissal?

b just

09-18-2005, 05:39 PM

Who defines "incompetence?" Are you really so naive as to assume that the principal or the board have the detached, unbiased wisdom to assume the role of judge and jury? Then you would have only a sort of game playing beaurocrat on the teaching staff. Or would you set up a group of teachers so that only the popular remain? If you think standardized test results are fair, you haven't looked too closely.
The growing number of people who cry for an end to tenure are really assaulting the teaching profession as one of the last remaining places where a dedicated individual can carry out a challenging intellectual calling without the narrow minded bigots who are trying to turn our world into a capitalist paradise where only the priviledged and their yesman lackies can prosper.
By the way, we teachers do not have tenure. We have due process. Which means you can't fire me without a good reason. So keep trying, scabs, we still have some rights left and until you and your bosses manage to take them away, teachers are still free to pursue truth and excellence instead of the party line.

Unregistered

09-18-2005, 08:40 PM

My husband works 7 days a week 12 to 14 hours a day. If I worked the hrs. he does I too could make more $$. I think our teacher salary is too low but I do love the time we have off.

b just

09-18-2005, 10:54 PM

Politicians are trying to stir up resentment toward teachers because we have time off and do a job that is a labor of love. And because they hate unions.
A few years from now, all Americans will be forced to work sweatshop hours and conditions if we can't manage to change these perceptions. As a child, I was told all of this mechanization would result in more leisure time. Now the norm is both parents working long hours. Instead of comparing teachers with roofers and businessmen, we should be comparing ourselves with lawyers who get paid for the time they spend thinking about their cases. Add up your hours that way. Compare teachers to firemen who work 10 or 15 days of the month. Teachers work a high stress job similar to paramedics and a creative job similar to artists. We are really in a class by ourselves and attempts to compare us with other workers or professional are usually done with ulterior motives of disassembling the benefits we have. Again, this is the internet. The people posing as teachers who make these subtle arguements against our working conditions are not to be trusted!

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-19-2005, 01:15 AM

Politicians are trying to stir up resentment toward teachers because we have time off and do a job that is a labor of love. And because they hate unions.

Do you think your brush is a little wide, perhaps?

The politician-as-bogeyman argument does nothing to address the issues.

A few years from now, all Americans will be forced to work sweatshop hours and conditions if we can't manage to change these perceptions.

This is the slippery slope argument, which could also be called truth-by-prophecy. In truth, you have no way of knowing what the future holds. Frankly, I think the future will be about the same as it is now, but that is pure conjecture on my part, just as it is on yours.

As a child, I was told all of this mechanization would result in more leisure time. Now the norm is both parents working long hours.

There are numerous socioeconomic reasons for the longer work day. I think one is the bad habit the public has garnered recently in buying tons of new crap on credit. When I was a kid, none of my friends had new cars. In fact, none of my friends had anything remotely resembling a new car. But I see kids driving new cars all the time now. With the changes in credit laws and lower interest rates, people are buying more stuff, which requires them to work longer to pay the bills. In my opinion, people are nowhere near as frugal as they used to be. (But these are just my impressions.)

Instead of comparing teachers with roofers and businessmen, we should be comparing ourselves with lawyers who get paid for the time they spend thinking about their cases. Add up your hours that way. Compare teachers to firemen who work 10 or 15 days of the month. Teachers work a high stress job similar to paramedics and a creative job similar to artists. We are really in a class by ourselves and attempts to compare us with other workers or professional are usually done with ulterior motives of disassembling the benefits we have.

Every freakin' profession in the world thinks they're the best. Firemen will tell you the same about their jobs. Doctors claim that they should be paid the highest because they have the most responsibility.

Here is why I think teachers are paid too low:

1. Most teachers have spent little time furthering skills outside of teaching, so they are locked into a single profession. Therefore, they have almost no bargaining power because the district knows they need the job. That hurts all of us.

2. By granting teachers tenure, the district and state knows we are going to be highly unwilling to leave our current job. Again, that hurts all teachers, tenured or untenured.

3. Teaching is a labor of love and most of us don't get in it for the money. The state knows this and pays us accordingly.

4. If the district knows it can fill a position for $30,000 a year, it isn't going to pay $35,000 a year. It's simple economics -- if I can get my house roofed for $4000, I'm not going to pay $4500. As long as we are willing to work for the money, our wages will be low.

5. We only work ten months of the year, and this has to be taken into account.

Do I want more pay? Absolutely. But I realize we are often our own worst enemy at the bargaining table.

Again, this is the internet. The people posing as teachers who make these subtle arguements against our working conditions are not to be trusted!

Again, an ad hominem argument. Posts should be judged on the soundness of the arguments, not on whether you think the poster can be trusted. Even if the governor was posting here in secrecy, what difference would it make?

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-19-2005, 01:42 AM

Who defines "incompetence?"

How about the people that hired the teachers in the first place?!?!?! If they are so unwise and biased, then how do you know you, or any other teacher for that matter, even deserved the job?

Since no one seems to want to answer the question, I will ask again: Should incompetence be a basis for dismissal?

Are you really so naive as to assume that the principal or the board have the detached, unbiased wisdom to assume the role of judge and jury?

Okay, are you so naive as to assume the principal or board have the detached, unbiased wisdom to hire teachers? If not, then who does?

The shop foreman is possibly biased, and possibly unwise. Yet he has the power to fire employees he thinks are incompetent. The same goes for managers all over the world in every profession that I can recall.

The growing number of people who cry for an end to tenure are really assaulting the teaching profession as one of the last remaining places where a dedicated individual can carry out a challenging intellectual calling without the narrow minded bigots who are trying to turn our world into a capitalist paradise where only the priviledged and their yesman lackies can prosper.

Now apply the same reasoning to the tutor you hire to help your kid, or the roofer you hired to roof your house, or the lawyer you hire to state your case.

We want tenure, but think no one else should have it. I sure as Hell want to be able to fire my mechanic if I think he isn't doing a good job. If I should be able to fire him, then I think the state should be able to fire me.

By the way, we teachers do not have tenure. We have due process. Which means you can't fire me without a good reason.

It depends on what state you are referring. California does have tenure, which can be verified by going to the California Law page, selecting Education, and typing "tenure" in the search field.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

So, in your opinion is incompetence a good reason to fire a teacher?

So keep trying, scabs, we still have some rights left and until you and your bosses manage to take them away, teachers are still free to pursue truth and excellence instead of the party line.

There is no RIGHT to tenure. If there was, everyone would have it.

A retiting MA teacher

09-19-2005, 10:38 AM

You're equating "experience" with "quality." In my experience, the veterans are often the poorest teachers on campus. In your opinion, where does quality fit into the picture? Should the best teachers be paid more?

Perhaps that is the way it is in your school. I am sorry for that. But experience in a classroom setting is more important than any tidbit of knowledge you may bring to the task. It is an art, not a science. Someday, when you are the experienced teacher you will understand.

34 Years and leaving the task to you geniuses

t tuttle

09-19-2005, 12:49 PM

.

We want tenure, but think no one else should have it. I sure as Hell want to be able to fire my mechanic if I think he isn't doing a good job. If I should be able to fire him, then I think the state should be able to fire me.

There is no RIGHT to tenure. If there was, everyone would have it.[/QUOTE]

I have to side with b just on this one. I think Lisa is a plant who comes onto this forum to try to cheapen our profession from within. All rights are negotiated. Don't let union busters disquised as well meaning educators influence us teachers. You have a right to a job with dignity. It's tough enough without all this sniping at the few benefits that make our profession an honorable one that attracts the brightest and best. Our society only respects money and power. We teachers must hold on to what little gains have been won with hardship and sacrifice. b just is right. Don't trust these scabs who pose as teachers.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-19-2005, 12:50 PM

Perhaps that is the way it is in your school. I am sorry for that.

Why does one poster after another fail to see that I said "OFTEN the poorest teachers on campus."

But experience in a classroom setting is more important than any tidbit of knowledge you may bring to the task.

The fallacy of limited options. There is more to teaching than experience and knowledge. Hmmm.... how about SKILL? Do you think skill has anything to do with it?

It is an art, not a science. Someday, when you are the experienced teacher you will understand.

It is not a science? At all? There is no body of research in education theory? There are no research-based teaching methods? Are you sure about that?

Please be careful when crafting arguments. Teaching is both an art and a science and I don't think anyone can reasonably disagree.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-19-2005, 01:05 PM

I have to side with b just on this one. I think Lisa is a plant who comes onto this forum to try to cheapen our profession from within.

Again, those that oppose me cannot get off the ad hominem arguments.

All rights are negotiated.

If the state can take it away, then it isn't a right.

Don't let union busters disquised as well meaning educators influence us teachers. You have a right to a job with dignity.

Does the welder have a right to a job with dignity? Does he have the right to tenure?

One post after another fails to explain why teachers should be given tenure. You are all educated. Are ad hominem attacks the best you can do?

And how about answering my question: Should incompetence be a basis for dismissal? I have only asked this simple question about five times now and no one seems to be able to respond.

How about another question: A principal sees a teacher employing a teaching method that is blatantly ineffective and damaging to the students' self-esteem. The classroom is the poorest achieving in the entire school and the student discipline is chaotic. The teacher is completely unwilling to listen to any advice and continues using the practice. Should this teacher be allowed to continue teaching if a more skillful teacher is available as a replacement?

b just

09-19-2005, 01:24 PM

This is my final post. You refuse to listen. The methodology of the right is so evident in your repeating the same trite arguements over and over and refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of responses.
For the last time....The purpose of due process is to protect teachers from being persecuted for their ideas. Unless incompetence can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by disinterested parties, there is far too much politics in schools to throw teachers to the wolves, which you seem bound and determined to see happen. Keep on with your propaganda, but stop whining that no one gives you a reason for protecting teachers. You've been told.

Unregistered

09-19-2005, 04:10 PM

I cannot believe the quote that most behavior problems are caused by the teachers. You're naive, a young "know-it-all", or simply rude. I'll hope it's the first.

Have you ever taught in a middle school chock full of rebellious, rude, defiant, beligerent and disrespectful adolescents? Have you ever experienced 25 of the previous year's 42 long-termed, extremely violent and dangerous students in ONE class at the SAME time? I'll bet not. How can you fairly judge another until you have experienced their world? It's simple, you can't!

When I took my current position three years ago, my school had recently experienced redistricting. In a nutshell, adminstration took 2 opposing/violent gangs.. East & South Side, and placed them together in a formerly diverse but successful school. The history of my particular position over the last ten years is: Teacher #1 stayed 3 yrs - then transferred; #2 stayed 2 weeks; #3 lasted just 4, #5-#9were subs for the balance of the year since no certified professional would consider the position. The next fall, #10 stayed for several years even though he became the dumping ground for all failing/long-termed students and then left for an elementary school. Teacher #11 lost control on day 1, was fired in March and quit teaching altogether in early April. I'm #13 and this is my 3rd year. The only reason I'm surviving is because I took this job with the promise that the principal would remove a handful of "ring leaders" if I felt it was necessary to regain control. You see, I'm a veteran teacher in my 22nd year. My discipline problems had nothing to do with me, I was set up for failure by the situation. I did survive only because I called over 350 parents by December. As a matter of fact, I turned the program around by March, but it was the most difficult challenge I have ever faced.

Please rethink before you judge. Sometimes it IS THE STUDENTS because they have been TAUGHT to NOT RESPECT AUTHORITY, ANY AUTHORITY in school or their community. Many don't even respect their parent.....note that's singular. It's not racial by any form, it's a socioeconomic thing...we need more answers to truly help these challenging kids.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-19-2005, 04:36 PM

I cannot believe the quote that most behavior problems are caused by the teachers.

Hold on now! If you are going to put words in my mouth, at least get my message right.

I said that behavior problems are often a direct result of instructional technique. The students cause the actual problems, but these problems can be alleviated or eliminated by using proper instructional strategy.

As an instructional leader, I step into many classrooms. I see some classrooms that are total chaos, and some that are quiet and responsive.

SAME KIDS!! This is a high school. It is the same freakin' kids, but in one class they tear it up, and in another they behave. So what's the difference? Teaching strategies.

So if your kids are giving you a rough time, have someone step into your class and watch your technique to offer suggestions.

For example, do you call on raised hands? (I bet you do.) If so, half of your problem is right there.

Blaming the kids does no one any good. THe only cure for the problem is to examine our own methods of instruction. Until you do, you have no way of knowing where the problem exists.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-19-2005, 04:46 PM

This is my final post. You refuse to listen.

Listen to WHAT?? You haven't offered anything but personal attacks and ad hominem fallacies. Where is the sound reasoning? Where are the answers to my questions?

The methodology of the right is so evident in your repeating the same trite arguements over and over and refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of responses.
For the last time....The purpose of due process is to protect teachers from being persecuted for their ideas.

These aren't universities we are talking about. Universities incorporated tenure to protect ideas because university faculty are hired primarily to *research and publish.* K-12 teachers almost never publish. They are hired to teach, not indoctrinate.

Unless incompetence can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by disinterested parties,

In other words, set up such an unrealistic standard that any amount of incompetence goes unchecked. So essentially a teacher can be as bad as they want to be and essentially nothing can be done about it.

there is far too much politics in schools to throw teachers to the wolves, which you seem bound and determined to see happen. Keep on with your propaganda, but stop whining that no one gives you a reason for protecting teachers. You've been told.

Yeah, and I notice a tremendous amount of concern you show for those that are really hurt by bad teaching, the kids. What about them?

I'm not interested in protecting bad teachers because (1) they hurt the image of my profession and (2) they hurt the kids. And the fact that you want seem to want to protect them really concerns me. Do the rest of your teachers at your school share your beliefs?

By the way, does anyone see the irony in the following statements?

The methodology of the right is so evident...

there is far too much politics in schools to throw teachers to the wolves,

Ye who attacks me for my perceived political beliefs has no right to complain about the overly charged political atmosphere on school grounds. :D

tom tuttle

09-21-2005, 05:42 AM

lisa h says any rights she can take away are not rights by definition. sounds like the primary tenent of neo conservatism. right to privacy, right to woman's control over her own body, right to a representative government, we can take them away, so you never had them.
and why all this focus on the "bad teachers" and the sudden need to protect the poor students from them? so, the teacher is the enemy here. not the underfunded, over regulated schools. not the class system that rewards the wealthy and punishes the underpriviledged. not the out of control immigration policies. nope,it's all the fault of the one member of society who has to bear it all on her shoulders.
what lisa wants is to take away teacher autonomy. without legal protections, the teacher as social conscience can finally be done away with so the neo cons can finish turning society into a haven for corportate greed.
nice try. kudos to the sharp teachers who exposed this propagandist.
don't buy it folks! teachers are not the problem, we're the solution.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-21-2005, 11:11 AM

lisa h says any rights she can take away are not rights by definition. sounds like the primary tenent of neo conservatism.

You are giving the kids watching this forum one Helluva lesson on bad argumentation. First off, I am not a neo-Conservative, and even if I was what difference does it make? Why should the soundness of one's arguments depend on the political persuasion of the author?

and why all this focus on the "bad teachers" and the sudden need to protect the poor students from them?

Because bad teachers hurt kids. Do you agree? Yes or no?

Are there other problems in the school system? Sure. But that isn't the issue here. I cannot fathom how anyone can go out of their way to let bad teachers continue their practice. Carpenters don't want bad carpenters continuing their practice, why should teachers?

what lisa wants is to take away teacher autonomy. without legal protections, the teacher as social conscience can finally be done away with so the neo cons can finish turning society into a haven for corportate greed.

You're not even arguing now; you're ranting.

You don't know me. You don't know my political background. So get off the personal attacks and name-calling. You may find this hard to believe, but I don't have to agree with you.

The hypocrisy here is blatant. You talk about the limitations on personal freedom, but you are clearly displaying an antagonistic approach to anyone that doesn't agree with your personal politics.

teachers are not the problem, we're the solution.

Unless we are willing to enhance the quality of the teaching profession (which includes allowing others to replace bad teachers with better teachers), then we are very much a part of the problem.

You are mistaken: Some students are the problem; some parents are the problem; some teachers are the problem; some administrators are the problem. We only have control over ourselves, so it does no good to try and pin the blame on others.

t tuttle

09-21-2005, 12:34 PM

"We only have control over ourselves, so it does no good to try and pin the blame others."
At last we agree. Focus on becoming a better teacher and quit trying so hard to judge other teachers.
I'm going to join the others who decided to give up on you. You're not going to change your mind and you obviously aren't going to change mine.
I'm guessing you teach at a school full of middle or upper class students who come to school well fed and ready to learn. In that case, the teachers have nothing much to do but play politics and one upmanship on one another: "I'm a better teacher than you and I'm going to try to get you fired from your cushy job to prove it."
For those of us who teach children from preliterate homes who are desperately poor, just showing up for work calls for a medal of honor. For us, your desire to judge who is a good and who is a bad teacher is irrelevant. It's like asking the fireman who is pulling people out of a burning building whether he deserves his job or not.
There are two Americas, sister. Best stay on your side of the (tracks) (suburbs). Those of us on this side don't have to ask silly questions about who gets to keep their job. We don't have people standing in line over here to take over. We are, in fact, desparate for anyone with guts enough to at least try to make a difference in these poor kids lives.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-21-2005, 05:21 PM

At last we agree. Focus on becoming a better teacher and quit trying so hard to judge other teachers.

Right. We should let those who hired the teachers judge them, right?

Or do you want no one to judge them? Complete unaccountability.

I'm guessing you teach at a school full of middle or upper class students who come to school well fed and ready to learn.

Most of the kids at my school receive free meals. Or are we still relying on the starvation excuse to explain their poor performance?

In that case, the teachers have nothing much to do but play politics and one upmanship on one another: "I'm a better teacher than you and I'm going to try to get you fired from your cushy job to prove it."

Where did you get that crap? Nothing I have said even remotely indicates such an attitude. You don't prove someone is bad by firing them; rather, you fire them because they are bad.

For those of us who teach children from preliterate homes who are desperately poor, just showing up for work calls for a medal of honor. For us, your desire to judge who is a good and who is a bad teacher is irrelevant. It's like asking the fireman who is pulling people out of a burning building whether he deserves his job or not.

I am certain that (1) firemen do judge the worth of their fellow firemen, (2) someone judges them and fires them if they are incompetent.

So who should judge the skills of firemen? No one? Themselves?

And once more, is bad teaching part of the problem? Yes or no?

Will I get a concise answer to these questions? Probably not.

There are two Americas, sister. Best stay on your side of the (tracks) (suburbs).

Heh! Again we have the personal attacks and jumps to conclusion.

Those of us on this side don't have to ask silly questions about who gets to keep their job. We don't have people standing in line over here to take over. We are, in fact, desparate for anyone with guts enough to at least try to make a difference in these poor kids lives.

So you are free to be as bad as you want to be simply because the district is desparate for teachers? Sorry if I misunderstand, but that appears to be the point you are really making here.

Bad teachers do none of us any good. They hurt our reputation, which ultimately results in lower wages as the populace decides to spend its money elsewhere. A teacher who cares little about his teaching skill and inadequancies is no colleague of mine.

t tuttle

09-21-2005, 07:45 PM

Define "bad teacher."

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-21-2005, 11:07 PM

First of all, I am not the authority on defining bad teacher, only that there are such things and they should be replaced.

There is probably more than one way to define a bad teacher, just as there is more than one way to define a bad actor. Here is one:

bad teacher -- A teacher who uses ineffective teaching practices and either doesn't give a lick or is so unskilled that they are unable to do anything about it.

Now I will be asked to define "teacher," "ineffective," "teaching," "practices," and/or "unskilled." And then I will be asked to describe all the terms comprising these definitions, ad infinitum, in the dim hopes of catching me in an inconstistency. The tactics never change.

So, now that I have answered your question, answer mine (ha! yeah, right!):

1. Is there such a thing as a bad teacher?

2. Are bad teachers a part of the problem?

3. Should bad teachers (if you agree they exist) be replaced if a better teacher is available?

I am down on bad teachers and I shant quit ripping them.

t tuttle

09-21-2005, 11:49 PM

Actually, I'm not at all interested in semantics, but I think you're beginning to understand my objections.
I'll be glad to really think over what we should do with "bad teachers" if you or someone can give me a working definition of what a bad teacher is and how to recognize one.
The first part of your definition, a bad teacher = one with bad teaching techniques is not really very helpful since, as you recognize, defining bad techniques isn't as easy as it sounds.
The second part of your definition, that the teacher doesn't give a lick is even harder to measure. I for one, eschew displaying my passions.
Our profession seems to be working toward standards that will make these difficult matters somewhat measurable, but right now we don't have anything close to a lock on measuring teacher quality.
On the other hand, most experienced teachers have seen attempts by authoriities who don't like a teacher's ideas go after her on nebulous claims of bad teaching. For example, a district I know well hired non Hispanics as a stop gap method, firing the sincere young teachers just before tenure while they shopped for the difficult to find teachers that fit their "profile". The adminsitrators involved lost their jobs eventually, but not until they'd broken many young hearts.

Excuse me for suspecting your motives. Like many experienced teachers, my history with persons who talk about "bad teachers" is mostly about ulterior motives. You may be sincere in your quest to define excellence, but, unless you're accepted as a good deal more impartial than you at first appear, I wager you'll have a difficult time with this crusade.
Until we find a measuring device for quality in our field, we're all stuck with the peers we disagree with.

One more thing. When standardized test first became the thing a few years back, a couple of teachers attacked a male teacher for his test scores, which were a few percentage points lower than theirs. Then I pointed out that because the principal placed most of the difficult boys in this teacher's class, it was an uneven playing field. These teachers had a ratio of 4 girls to 1 boy in their classes and the male teacher had the reverse. Nobody had noticed that and he was being badgered out of his job till I pointed out the discrepancy. When you take into account the higher test scores of females to males, this teacher actually tested higher. Since then, people around here have been a little more careful about attacking "bad teachers."

My county has neatly segregated neighborhoods. Those of us who teach at the schools with financially stressed students have watched our peers in the more fortunate schools be lauded and rewarded for essentially teaching at schools where the students come to them ready to succeed. Surely you are aware that these injustices exist? Until our society stops dividing opportunities by color and birth, attempts to judge the unfortunate and those who serve them by the priveledged will just not be welcome.

Due process is the only thing that makes this profession attractive to men and women who neither fit the profile of the priviledged nor want much to do with them. The priviledged hold most of the cards. Time and time again, they have attempted, and still attempt to use power to eliminate those who challenge their "rights" to power. Tenure was invented to protect the teaching profession from the bigotry that controls so many other areas of our society.

I don't appreciate people with power who act superior to the powerless and assume they are innately superior. For that reason alone, I have rubbed some administrative types (people who are attracted to power) the wrong way. I've been through 12 principals and 3 superintendents in the last 15 years. Most of them quit because they couldn't handle the heat, but a few of them would have fired me the first time I told them where to take their bigoted ideas about my students. Naturally, they attempted to attack my teaching as justification.

Hope this helps. It may be that you really are a sincere person with a question that you just don't realize is really very loaded. If not, it has helped me to use your doggedness to clarify my own position. For that I thank you, Lisa. Good luck in your pursuit of excellence. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-22-2005, 01:57 AM

The first part of your definition, a bad teacher = one with bad teaching techniques is not really very helpful since, as you recognize, defining bad techniques isn't as easy as it sounds.

Actually, there is a huge body of research in education that directly addresses teaching techniques and their effectiveness. So I don't understand why you say that distinguishing bad teaching from good teaching is so difficult. Common sense and research can always be applied.

The second part of your definition, that the teacher doesn't give a lick is even harder to measure.

Not at all if the teacher openly admits it, which I have seen teachers do on multiple occassions. To you, that means nothing from what I can tell. To me, that tells me a lot.

It seems you are trying to apply a scientific numerical value to "uncaring," which is completely unnecessary. An uncaring teacher is not hard to spot, and certainly not hard to verify with some examination. To make it sound impossible is just a coverup. What manager of any industry would be able to replace a worker under such unrealistic demands?

Our profession seems to be working toward standards that will make these difficult matters somewhat measurable, but right now we don't have anything close to a lock on measuring teacher quality.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you can't tell a bad teacher from a good teacher?

If so, how do you know that you are good teacher yourself? How do you evaluate your own effectiveness? Or do you?

On the other hand, most experienced teachers have seen attempts by authoriities who don't like a teacher's ideas go after her on nebulous claims of bad teaching.

Most? That's a tall claim. You have evidence to back your statement?

For example, a district I know well hired non Hispanics as a stop gap method, firing the sincere young teachers just before tenure while they shopped for the difficult to find teachers that fit their "profile".

So how did tenure help these teachers? These people were fired BECAUSE of tenure. You admitted it yourself.

Your post points out what is wrong with tenure. Since districts are afraid to be stuck with teachers it doesn't want, it fires teachers before they have a chance to prove their worth. The same applies to the college level; junior faculty are fired left and right because tenured professors are almost impossible to terminate. That does not help the profession one iota.

Excuse me for suspecting your motives. Like many experienced teachers, my history with persons who talk about "bad teachers" is mostly about ulterior motives. You may be sincere in your quest to define excellence, but, unless you're accepted as a good deal more impartial than you at first appear, I wager you'll have a difficult time with this crusade.

And YOU are impartial???

Until we find a measuring device for quality in our field, we're all stuck with the peers we disagree with.

Disagree with?? Bad teaching is not a mere disagreement.

[I mentioned nothing about test scores in my post, so I deleted the straw man.]

Until our society stops dividing opportunities by color and birth, attempts to judge the unfortunate and those who serve them by the priveledged will just not be welcome.

Bad teachers are now just the "unfortunate?" A teacher is allowed to be as bad as she wants to be simply because she works in a poverty-stricken district?

I don't give a damn which school you consider, there will always be some teachers that can get students to do their best, and some that habitually get students to be their worst. To suggest that it is impossible to distinguish between the two is ludicrous.

The priviledged hold most of the cards. Time and time again, they have attempted, and still attempt to use power to eliminate those who challenge their "rights" to power. Tenure was invented to protect the teaching profession from the bigotry that controls so many other areas of our society.

Tenure does nothing of the sort, because until a teacher's probationary period ends they can be fired. If an administration is bigoted, they will fire the teachers before they reach the end of their probationary period. You admitted this yourself.

Tenure is simply a perk, and a bad one for the teaching profession. The reasons for tenure are to preserve the freedom to publish controversial research. Teachers at the K-12 level almost never engage in such research.

Tenure does nothing for me. The major effects I feel from tenure are a lowering of the reputation for the entire teaching profession. Sit in a diner sometime and listen to parents talk about teachers. Little of the talk is good; unfortunately, their complaints are often right on.

Good luck in your pursuit of excellence. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

You may want to understand the quote before you use it.

Besides, I am certainly willing to allow others to judge my teaching. I do it all the time.

By the way, once again a poster has ignored my questions. So I ask again:

1. Is there such a thing as a bad teacher?

2. Are bad teachers a part of the problem?

3. Should bad teachers (if you agree they exist) be replaced if a better teacher is available?

tuttle

09-22-2005, 10:10 AM

How do you define "bad teacher?"

redman

09-22-2005, 04:20 PM

Bad teacher: someone who disagrees with me.

Scab: Member of a union who breaks rank for personal or poliitical agenda.

L. Hotscakes: Wants teachers to have the same protections as roofers and factory workers.

Tuttle: Idealist who doesn't know when to give up. (The cables plugged in but the sound is turned off.)

El Tortuga

09-22-2005, 05:56 PM

New York Times today's date. article titled "Tenure, Turnover, and the Quality of Teaching."
Study shows quality tied to longevity. Biggest problem in teaching is attracting good people and keeping them past the first year or two.

Jane Doe

09-22-2005, 05:58 PM

The corporations have taken over the media and the government. If they can just get there hands on education....

How? Go after union protections by spreading the myth of the "bad teacher" instead of focusing on systematic problems.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-23-2005, 12:40 AM

How do you define bad writing? According to the logic posted here, unless you can pointedly define bad writing, you can't assign grades to it. Baloney!

I cannot believe that a profession comprising educated people cannot identify bad teaching when it sees it. From what I can see, every profession has been able to do it except teachers. I refuse to believe we are so incompetent.

Since my questions have yet again to be answered, let me try once more:

1. Are there bad teachers?

2. Are bad teachers part of the problem?

3. Should bad teachers (if you agree they exist) be replaced with better teachers?

@*$^%@, a simple yes or no would suffice!

So go on with the personal attacks, because that is all you have.

Jane Doe

09-23-2005, 08:48 AM

So after all this talk, you can't even define what you mean by "bad teacher?"

What, pray tell, is the point of discussing sentencing for treason if know one can define it?

redman

09-23-2005, 08:58 AM

We have so many standards for bad writing, but just to model for you how to define something, here goes: "Bad writing is writing that is poorly constructed, does not follow the basic rules of grammar, wanders from it's central point or fails to address the central point."

That's just one definition, but as long as it is given in the form of a rubric before the writing commences, almost any definition suffices.

Sticking to your metaphor of roofing, if I contract a roofer and tell him I want two layers of #6 felt firmly affixed beneath interlocking asphalt tiles, that is the rubric and any variance could then be defined as "bad roofing". Not, by the way, "bad roofer." Big difference, the first being a working definition agreed upon by mature people and the other "name calling" by immature personalities.

So, perhaps we can agree there is "bad teaching" if only you can define what "good teaching" is.

If you want to avoid name calling, don't start a discussion with indiscriminate labeling.

LeticiaL.

09-23-2005, 02:25 PM

After putting 4 kids through public schools and teaching for 18 years, I can say I have never met a bad teacher.

Bad politicians are many, and they control everything about our schools and even the air we breathe. Spend your energy going after them!

Lisa, do you have bad students? Are you as srident about identifying and expunging them?

You may be a great teacher, but you are not a good union member.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-23-2005, 10:03 PM

"Bad writing is writing that is poorly constructed, does not follow the basic rules of grammar, wanders from it's central point or fails to address the central point."

Okay, bad teachers present lesson plans that are poorly constructed, do not follow best practices established through scientific research, wander from their central point, and fail to address the learning objective. And they do it despite being shown the ineffectiveness of their approach.

This assumes that the teachers actually have lesson plans. Some of them don't. We have some that think teaching is about handing out workbooks, then walking around class helping those who raise their hands. Crap, I can get a bus driver to teach as well.

We even have some teachers at my high school that think word searches constitute academic work.

One of my colleagues puts kids at the front of the class to defend solutions to their previous night's homework. Kids that have mistakes are asked to identify them on their own. After a few minutes, the rest of the class starts chanting out to the kid where the mistake is, producing a cacophony of confusing instructions. After about five minutes of this humiliation, one of the kids started to cry. (Thanks to this teacher, the kid will probably never like mathematics.)

But to you, that teacher is just as good as anyone else. I say if that is true, then we are in world of hurt.

After putting 4 kids through public schools and teaching for 18 years, I can say I have never met a bad teacher.

So are you saying there are no bad teachers?

Why is it so hard to simply answer the question?? Is there such a thing as a bad teacher?

Bad politicians are many, and they control everything about our schools and even the air we breathe. Spend your energy going after them!

Red herring.

Lisa, do you have bad students? Are you as srident about identifying and expunging them?

I teach them.

You may be a great teacher, but you are not a good union member.

I would rather be a great teacher.

And how do you define a good union member?

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-23-2005, 10:10 PM

Sticking to your metaphor of roofing, if I contract a roofer and tell him I want two layers of #6 felt firmly affixed beneath interlocking asphalt tiles, that is the rubric and any variance could then be defined as "bad roofing". Not, by the way, "bad roofer."

If the roofer is shown how his roofing does not conform to acceptable standards, and he refuses to change or is unable to change, would he then be a bad roofer?

Would you replace him with someone you felt could do a better job?

Letitia L.

09-24-2005, 06:18 PM

There is no such thing as a bad teacher.

You said that if you had a bad student you would teach him. I have never had a bad student. I have only had students who behave badly at times. My job is to teach them,not to judge them.

There is a big difference between telling someone they are behaving badly and need to improve and condemning them as "bad" people. if there are teachers who do not behave the way you approve of, teach them. Stop judging them. It isn't your job and will only make you unhappy. I am sorry you have lost respect for the other teachers in your school, but you must look to your own heart to regain that respect. You will not be able to destroy them or their carreers, and attempting to do so will destroy yourself.

A badly behaving union member is one who enjoys the protections of the union while attempting to destroy those protections, possibly to curry favor with those who rule.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-24-2005, 11:37 PM

There is no such thing as a bad teacher.

Okay, at least you answered the question. I think a lot of people (especially some frustrated parents) will disagree.

Are there bad politicians? According to the logic you present below, no. Are there bad carpenters? I guess not. Hell, don't we all feel better now?

You said that if you had a bad student you would teach him. I have never had a bad student. I have only had students who behave badly at times. My job is to teach them,not to judge them.

Okay, and when a teacher refuses to be taught? What then?

Forget the labels for a moment... what do you propose to do with a tenured teacher who is completely ineffective in the classroom and refuses to get better? Enough of the union banter, what is your plan?

There is a big difference between telling someone they are behaving badly and need to improve and condemning them as "bad" people.

With a student, I can recommend punishment. The student is accountable because the teacher, principal, and parents can enact punishment that makes his behavior detrimental to himself.

With tenure, what do you propose to do with a teacher who acts just as badly? I want to see your plan.

But you don't have a plan, do you? You say, "teach them," but these aren't students. Tenured teachers simply do not have implement a damn thing you say, so what then? What is your PLAN?

Those kids need better instruction, but we instead focus on these teachers' feelings. Screw 'em. I have ZERO empathy for teachers that refuse to get better.

if there are teachers who do not behave the way you approve of, teach them. Stop judging them. It isn't your job and will only make you unhappy. I am sorry you have lost respect for the other teachers in your school, but you must look to your own heart to regain that respect. You will not be able to destroy them or their carreers, and attempting to do so will destroy yourself.

I didn't come here to have Dr. Phil tell me how to be happy.

A badly behaving union member is one who enjoys the protections of the union while attempting to destroy those protections, possibly to curry favor with those who rule.

Tenure is protection for the incompetent; I don't give a damn about their problems. And to call someone a bad union member simply because he doesn't agree with everything the union demands is, IMO, a little hypocritical on your part. You don't want people labeled "bad," but you do it yourself. Your true colors showed.

Jane Doe

09-25-2005, 06:04 AM

As I see it, this discussion has come down to perception:

Two men looked out of prison bars;
One saw mud, the other saw stars.

Lisa seems to see a world full of bad teachers.

Leticicia sees no bad teachers.

Of course we all have a right to see the world through whatever shaded glasses we wish to put on, but the problem is that negative thinking people want to change a system of protection enjoyed by millions to go after, what percentage?

What percentage of teachers are bad, Lisa? Enough to take away the security that we all enjoy?

I for one would rather live in a country where we do not have to be strip searched every time we board public transportation just to allay the fears of those who see the world as a terrorist haven. People ask me if I'd risk death for the convenience of not being treated as a criminal. Well, yes I would rather face the prospect of dying on an airplane than a nation that treats every citizen like a potential terrorist. We do that, and no matter what else happens, the loss of freedoms our government has imposed has granted the terrorists their victory by definition. We have allowed terror to rule us.

If we teachers allow the fear of a few bad teachers to take away the protections of the many good teachers, we give up too much for what may be the perception of some overwrought, angry ("screw them") individuals whose real problem is probably rooted in hurt feelings instead of concern for our profession. (Maybe Dr. Phil might be of some help, dear)

t tuttle

09-25-2005, 06:08 AM

Here is the plan.

Team teaching.

Don't knock it till you've tried it. How do you know so much about who is a good teacher and who is a bad one? Have you spent that much time in the other teacher's classroom, or are you judging them by second and third hand accounts? Join a team with a group of teachers and influence one another on a daily basis. You'll feel less paranoid and angry and Dr. Phil can concentrate on the flood victims.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-25-2005, 12:44 PM

Of course we all have a right to see the world through whatever shaded glasses we wish to put on, but the problem is that negative thinking people want to change a system of protection enjoyed by millions to go after, what percentage?

If you are a kid sitting in a class taught by an incompetent, you tell me what good it does to tell this kid that it is okay -- the other kids are likely to be taught by someone skilled. To that kid, percentages do not matter.

What percentage of the popululation are thieves? Probably 1%. But when we find someone stealing, we take action, don't we?

When we see an ineffective teacher, that teacher needs to improve come Hell or high water. And if the teacher doesn't improve, then that teacher needs to be replaced with someone better. Do you agree?

What is common sense in all other professions seems to go right over our heads. And this refusal to acknowledge bad teaching and do something about bad teachers is what makes a mockery of our profession and ultimately hurts kids.

Well, yes I would rather face the prospect of dying on an airplane than a nation that treats every citizen like a potential terrorist.

One small problem with your analogy -- it is the kids, not you, that are hurt by bad teaching. In essense, you are saying that you would rather the kids face the prospect of dying on an airplane (receiving a crappy education) than for you to be treated like a potential terrorist (having to face the risk of losing your job).

Here is the plan.

Team teaching.

Oh, so instead of 10% of the students receiving 100% less instruction, you end up with 100% of the students receiving 10% less instruction. This is spreading the incompetence out over a wide area instead of concentrating it on a select few students, like spreading radioactive dust over the entire state rather than concentrating it in one acre. Yeah, that will really solve the problem.

If the teacher cannot teach; having them buddy up is not going to solve the problem. As a highly effective teacher, I do not want to be shackled with an incompetent, because that only waters down my effectiveness. In essence, you are creating for me a problem that I now have to solve.

Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Been there; done that.

How do you know so much about who is a good teacher and who is a bad one?

Again, you are resorting to an ad hominem argument.

So let me turn this around: Are you saying that you are incapable of distinguishing good teaching practices from bad? How do you gauge your own teaching effectiveness, or are you just teaching blind? How can anyone accept a critique of their teaching if we are all incapable of identifying ineffective teaching practices?

Have you spent that much time in the other teacher's classroom, or are you judging them by second and third hand accounts?

I have stepped into more classroom sessions than probably anyone on this board. You would be shocked at what I have seen. (But would you care?)

t tuttle

09-25-2005, 02:25 PM

Why don't you just answer the question instead of giving the question a latin name and asking one of your own?

Jane Doe

09-25-2005, 02:41 PM

"What percentage of the popululation are thieves? Probably 1%. But when we find someone stealing, we take action, don't we?"

Remember what we are discussing. Don't lose yourself in the analogies. If you are saying that one teacher out of one hundred is a bad teacher, would you really remove protection from injustice from the other 99?

Maybe you understand how the military can go into a neighborhood full of suffering and dying people and focus their attentions and weapons on percieved looters.

Do try not to throw the baby out with the wash. Your concern for the children is admirable, but take it from a mother, they will survive the experience of a year with these teachers who you so despise.

You remind me of my brother who always complained what terrible parents we had. It took him years to realize that they had kept him alive for 20 years and that he had never been abused. So maybe ours weren't the best parents, and maybe the teachers you despise aren't the best, but are they striking these students? Are they molesting them? Certainly the law deals with teachers who are "bad" in these ways. And keep in mind, that while education is mandatory, parents do have options. If I were a parent of a student of these "bad teachers" I would take action.

Due process or not, any teacher who racks up parent complaints will be let go in every school I have experience with.

Maybe your problem is with a particular administration's lack of responsiveness to parents complaints. Or are you the only one complaining? Either way, eliminating teacher protections hardly seems an appropriate solution to your, 1% (I suspect this is an inflated estimate) "bad teacher" problem.

Also, you simply must stop pretending there are no arguements against your anti-due process stance. You have been arguing with your opponents quite extensively. If they have no arguement, what are you arguing against? I guess we are in the class of those who should be eliminated were Lisa queen.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-25-2005, 02:59 PM

Why don't you just answer the question instead of giving the question a latin name and asking one of your own?

Because the question focuses on me rather than the issue.

And the ad hominem approach is a fallacy. So why use it?

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-25-2005, 03:24 PM

Remember what we are discussing. Don't lose yourself in the analogies.

I would suggest you heed your own advice, since you initiated the analogy. And speaking of such, your analogy was off because you assumed that you were the only one affected by the plane crashing, so that you could speak for all others when determining whether or not you should be searched. But there are other people on board, aren't there?

Your concern for the children is admirable, but take it from a mother, they will survive the experience of a year with these teachers who you so despise.

Two problems with your response:

1. Students are only in the second grade ONCE in their lives. I cannot believe that the teaching profession (and motherhood) has stooped to the level of dismissing an entire year's worth of education. They will survive?!?! The skills they need in third grade often depend on what they learned in second grade. I am not going to "take it from a mother" because the mother is wrong.

This is how we are supposed to parent? If our kids' teachers are lousy, we are supposed to just say, "Oh, they will surive"? I can't believe this!

2. Your statement about me despising these teachers is a straw man -- the issue here is not my attitude towards these teachers, but rather the damage they do. Again, this is another appeal to the ad hominem.

You remind me of my brother...

I don't want to get into your family life. Families are regarded much differently than classrooms, so the two are not analogous.

Due process or not, any teacher who racks up parent complaints will be let go in every school I have experience with.

That is an appeal to wishful thinking. You need to experience a school district where this is not the case. If your school district routinely fires incompetent teachers, regardless of their tenure, then my criticisms are not directed at your district.

Maybe your problem is with a particular administration's lack of responsiveness to parents complaints. Or are you the only one complaining? Either way, eliminating teacher protections hardly seems an appropriate solution to your, 1% (I suspect this is an inflated estimate) "bad teacher" problem.

1% is inflated? Hardly. You need to step into some classrooms and look around. Ineffective teaching practices are everywhere.

Also, you simply must stop pretending there are no arguements against your anti-due process stance.

Huh? What are you talking about?

And "anti-due process" is another straw man. I never said I was against due process. I think a teacher's habitual ineffectiveness should be brought to their attention and the teacher given all opportunities to improve and defend themselves. When have I said otherwise?

But my opponents in this forum are advocating a position that no one should be allowed to judge the effectiveness of the teacher and his/her willingness to improve. Also, they make the claim that incompetence should not be a basis for dismissal. I don't consider that due process, but rather a license to be lousy. And damn right I oppose it.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-25-2005, 03:41 PM

Due process or not, any teacher who racks up parent complaints will be let go in every school I have experience with.

By the way, do you see how inconsistent you are with your argumentation? On one hand, you claim that teachers should be protected from the judgments of others regarding teaching quality. On the other hand, you suggest my arguments are invalid because the district already routinely dismisses teachers based on the judgments of parents.

You either agree with me or you don't. If you don't, then why are you trumping the actions of your district when it appears to violate your own principles?

Roger Rex

09-25-2005, 04:12 PM

I am a teacher in the State of California. We do not have tenure here, but "due process." Despite all the rhetoric, any teacher can be terminated for incompetence.
I doubt very much whether Lisa, or any teacher, wants the law changed so that any administrator can fire any teacher any time without proving just cause.
I point this out because this discussion, which is fascinating, seems to have gotten a bit muddied.
It sounds like Lisa works for a singularly ineffective district. This can be very frustrating for a teacher who cares intensely about the quality of her site. I have a hard time believing she wants to do away with teacher protections and I think the charges of "scab" are a bit harsh.
Were I surrounded by incompetent teachers who refuse to adapt to the needs of the students (I think this is a better working definition than the inflamatory "bad teacher") I would take my concerns up the ranks.
Begin with confrontiing the teachers. Then go to the principal. Then the superintendent. Then the parents. If all that fails, which seems unlikely, I would seek help from my union. Lobbying against the legal protection offered by the state would be the last resort I should take.
Some teachers work in districts where fine teachers have been persecuted for issues not at all related to teaching quality. Different experiences in these areas yield diffferent concerns. We all have our own crosses to bear. I hope that none of us wants to remove the few legal protections our profession offers. We don't have tenure. Teachers can be fired, just not lightly over personal or political issues.

Letitia L.

09-25-2005, 04:20 PM

The only people I've ever met who are against due process are people who don't like teachers. Why don't people like teachers? Certainly not because some of them are ineffective. There is a clear anti education bias in our country that is presently being fostered by politicians. For those who want absolute control over the democratic process, teachers are loose cannons. Removing due process while electing anti education school board members is sytemactically declaring war on free internchange of ideas in the classroom. No teacher should want to jeopardize our entire profession with the feeble excuse of going after a few bad apples. You are right to worry about protecting students from uncaring teachers. But consider the scenario where all the teachers in your district represent extreme religious positions that are against science, literature, art, free expression, and the democratic ideals that are the cornerstone of public education. These people have already hijacked the federal government. Some districts and states have already fallen into their clutches. Unless you want to teach under the Christian equivalent of the Ayatolla, you should reconsider your attack on teacher protections.
Whenever we object to the takeover of democracy by religious nuts, they hide behind the same trite rhetorical chliches. Some of you are dangersously close to those methods of propaganda.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-25-2005, 04:51 PM

I am a teacher in the State of California. We do not have tenure here, but "due process." Despite all the rhetoric, any teacher can be terminated for incompetence.

That is true at the college levels, too... IN THEORY. But in practice, getting rid of a teacher for incompetence is damn hard. If it was truly that simple, I wouldn't be here arguing about it.

Tenure is under attack in many states. When an concept is under attack, one of the responses is to claim the issue is moot because the concept doesn't exist. To say that California does not have tenure is very misleading. No profession (other than the Supreme Court) has tenure according to your definition. But obviously something magicial must happen after the seventh year of teaching within a district. The California Education Code even uses the term tenure to describe this term of employment.

Consider the following statement by Joseph Knowles in The Education Code:

"Teachers' tenure was made a part of the law by amendment to the Political Code.[Stats.1921, C. 878, p. 1663.]" http://www.sandiego.edu/lrc/education_code.html

Even the NEA disagrees with you:

http://www2.nea.org/he/tenure.html

I doubt very much whether Lisa, or any teacher, wants the law changed so that any administrator can fire any teacher any time without proving just cause.
I point this out because this discussion, which is fascinating, seems to have gotten a bit muddied.
It sounds like Lisa works for a singularly ineffective district. This can be very frustrating for a teacher who cares intensely about the quality of her site. I have a hard time believing she wants to do away with teacher protections and I think the charges of "scab" are a bit harsh.

Sounds like a fair assessment of my argument.

Were I surrounded by incompetent teachers who refuse to adapt to the needs of the students (I think this is a better working definition than the inflamatory "bad teacher") I would take my concerns up the ranks.
Begin with confrontiing the teachers. Then go to the principal. Then the superintendent. Then the parents. If all that fails, which seems unlikely, I would seek help from my union.

Help from the union? Who do you think has been protecting the teacher all along?

Sure, if the union sided with the district in ridding the classrooms of these teachers, my arguments would be totally moot. I wouldn't have even brought it up. But our union once tried to prevent us from attending faculty development training. It also considers in-class observations some sort of evil intrusion, which to me is ludicrous.

My argument is simple: Unions should fight for that which helps the teaching profession. Better wages? Sure. Lighter work loads? In many instances, absolutely! The right to be horrible? Hell no! The right to spurn development training? No way. The right to no oversight or accountability. Sorry, but I am not going to fight for those "protections." (And if that makes me a bad union member, then that makes me a bad union member.)

taho buddha

09-25-2005, 06:28 PM

Too bad the unions can't get rid of bad members as easily as schools can.

Roger Rex

09-25-2005, 09:42 PM

Letitia L.

09-25-2005, 09:52 PM

Quote "Students are only in the second grade ONCE in their lives. I cannot believe that the teaching profession (and motherhood) has stooped to the level of dismissing an entire year's worth of education."

Oops. I thought we were in a high school forum. Do you teach high school and are concerned about 2nd grade teachers? Or the other way around?

If you teach in an elementary school, then you probably should address that level of teachers, I am sure reactions would differ, since, as you point out, a 2nd grade teacher can certainly do more damage than a 12th grade typing teacher.

I've seen Ray Bradbury speak several times and every time he says "Fire all the first grade teachers." He's serious. Of course he probably hasn't been in a classroom for 50 years, but I think he would agree with you heartily. Tough sell, your issue, for high school teachers who really do have political issues to deal with.

If you decide to switch forums, let me know, I'd be interested to see what the other 2nd grade teachers have to say about your idea of removing due process.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 12:04 AM

Can we assume that you went through the ranks then? You approached the parents about the bad teaching going on in the school and they were: a. disinterested; b. befuddled; c. ineffective. You skipped right over this point, but I think it is crucial to the issue.

I don't have the authority to call parents and initiate unrest. Any teacher doing would be considered subversive by the district, and rightfully so. It would probably get my principal fired.

By the way, another inconsistency is now cropping up. We have been told that no one should judge teachers because we don't have a definitive standard for excellent teaching, but now we are expecting parents to carry the mantle for us, as if they know any more about excellent teaching than we do.

Parents truly hold all the cards, though many don't know the power they possess. A teacher who is not teaching could find herself teaching to an empty classroom if parents were concerned.

Under no circumstances would I ever advocate parents keeping their kids out of class.

Do you truly belong to a district that ignores scores of angry parents shouting their disapproval at Board Meetings? Do not families still sue when abuses are left unaddressed?

You're not going to get scores of angry parents showing up at a board meeting to denounce ineffective teaching here. You might get them to show up over some civil rights issue, but not teaching.

The problem with your idea is that there is no single, definable event surrounding bad teaching that will rally parents. Bad teaching doesn't produce heart attacks, just a slow cancer.

Sorry, but your idea about an angry mob with pitch forks and torches is idealistic. Sure, I would love it if it happened, but it simply isn't. Not around here.

teacher76

09-26-2005, 12:14 AM

The people of this country (and California) had better wake up before our democracy entirely disappears. These rat bastard fascists who stole the 2000 election, gave billions back to the top 2%, drove us into an illegal and unjustified war with complete disregard for international law, are trying to crush the world beneath the heel of privatization for everything (read money grab for thieves and friends of the administration, Haliburton, Bechtel, KBR, Enron, etc.).

These scum-****************ing hypocrites of the Christian Taliban pushed for the No Child Left Behind Act and then purposely underfunded it so that it would fail--and in many instances it has. These un-American, 21st century Nazis want the educational system to fail so they can get their precious vouchers to pay billions more in tax dollars to the Ayatollah Pat Robertsons who seem to think that socialist sytems that try to take care of their people are a threat to our way of life--if only they would live theirs lives like the man they so vehemently profess to worship! (and by the way, if he had said someone should kill the president of the U.S. instead of Venezuela, he'd probably be behind bars but it's okay to say things like that about leaders of socialist leaning countries--and after all, we do consider every other third world country's natural resources ours).

Arnold's plan is to do an end-run around democracy and steal it from the working people. Teachers, firefighters, policmen, nurses, and other healthcare providers are the new targets--lazy, overpaid cancers on society according to his dogma and actions. He wants to: 1. limit unions' political power 2. extend tenure-granting period so that teachers will keep their mouths shut 3. let three retired judges draw redistricting lines instead of our elected representatives (yes, we all know how judges are above partisan politics--we saw them in action in the 2000 election with the Supreme Court Coup d'etat)

Does someone have to spell it out for America?

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 12:16 AM

Oops. I thought we were in a high school forum. Do you teach high school and are concerned about 2nd grade teachers? Or the other way around?

I'm concerned about teaching at all levels. Are you?

If you teach in an elementary school, then you probably should address that level of teachers, I am sure reactions would differ, since, as you point out, a 2nd grade teacher can certainly do more damage than a 12th grade typing teacher.

What about a ninth grade Algebra I teacher? Is her job important? Very convenient example (12th grade typing) you posted. Did you really think I wouldn't see it?

I deleted the rambling dialogue about Ray Bradbury. I have no idea what he has to do with this issue, nor do I care.

Oh, I have taught at the middle school, high school, and college levels. And I post in all forums here, even Kindergarten. Look 'em up.

Roger Rex

09-26-2005, 08:29 AM

Why in the world would you worry about getting your principal fired? This is the person who allows the people you've been railing against to continue their misconduct? I just don't get that at all. Loyalty to the principal over the students?

Of course I wasn't advocating keeping children out of class. Do you live in such a small town that there is only one Algebra class in one High School? No home teaching?

You dismissed team teaching rather out of hand I thought.

No wonder you are upset. It appears you've cut off all avenues of effective action in favor a political solution that could only succeed by destroying what is left of teacher protection against arbitrary firing.

Parents don't seem to object to these teachers you have targeted. If you are alone in this blame game, you might start considering some of the arguements presented here.

Leticia

09-26-2005, 08:34 AM

Quote - If you are alone in this blame game, you might start considering some of the arguements presented here.

In several places, the person you are addressing states that she deleted without reading or refused to read a paragraph dealing with an example she found distasteful. I think we've all given this individual our best shot at persuasion. She seems, as R. states to be advocating without any real regard for any other point of view but her own. No wonder she can't get along with the other teachers at her site! What an angry, bitter person!

B Just

09-26-2005, 09:15 AM

The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement... We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, September 27, 1993

Pat Robertson hires "public relations" agents to infiltrate sites such as this one to try and subvert teacher unity against this takeover, which begins with destroying teacher protections like "tenure" which is really due process.

If those of you who have been arguing against this idealogue want to make a difference, follow it around the web site and challenge it wherever you find it. (I say it because we are dealing with corporate entities here, not individuals with thinking, caring responses).

You think I'm being paranoid? Just open your eyes and look.

C. Edgar

09-26-2005, 10:04 AM

Lisa Hot.. rather blatantly infers that typing is not an important subject in comparison with Algebra.

I am a 58 year old man who entered teaching as a second career. Most of the jobs I had before I opened my own business were jobs that required typing. I often told people it was the only skill I learned in high school that actually proved useful.

Stop being so judgemental against other teachers! It shows in many small ways how full of contempt for us you are.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 12:11 PM

Why in the world would you worry about getting your principal fired? This is the person who allows the people you've been railing against to continue their misconduct? I just don't get that at all. Loyalty to the principal over the students?

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions, mostly based on how things operate in your district. Let me just say that the principal is one of my major allies. Maybe at your school the principal can simply fire anyone he or she wishes, but not here.

Of course I wasn't advocating keeping children out of class. Do you live in such a small town that there is only one Algebra class in one High School? No home teaching?

First of all, I only used algebra as a hypothetical example in a previous post.

I think you need to quit being so idealistic. How would dumping the children from one class into another solve this problem? Do you think that is fair to the other teachers -- they get more students while the rotten teacher has a lighter grading load?

You dismissed team teaching rather out of hand I thought.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding of team teaching. Explain your version of team teaching and how it would solve this problem. My gut feeling is that your solution will only spread the teacher's incompetence out over a wider area.

No wonder you are upset. It appears you've cut off all avenues of effective action..

Effective action? Asking parents to teach their kids at home is a solution? This is HIGH SCHOOL. Almost none of the parents in this area are even close to being able to teach at this level.

Dumping the kids onto the other teachers is a solution?

Parents don't seem to object to these teachers you have targeted.

You don't know that. You are assuming that simply because I stated that the parents were not going to rally at a board membership. And you also assume that parents are trained evaluators of teaching talent. They are not. And there is no way to organize such a rally without becoming subversive to the district. Do you really think that any teacher is going to call parents behind another teacher's back? That can get someone sued.

So far, your suggestions comprise:

1. Dumping the kids onto the other teachers.
2. Making the parents teach the kids.
3. Team teaching (which you need to clarify).
4. Subversively organizing unrest behind the teacher's back.

If I have mischaracterized your solutions, please let me know. I'll wait on #3, but so far your ideas are worthless to me in my situation.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 12:19 PM

Lisa Hot.. rather blatantly infers that typing is not an important subject in comparison with Algebra.

The State does too. They don't even test typing as part of the CST. Care to explain why?

But I was referring to the TEACHING of typing, not the discipline itself. Teaching typing is nowhere near as difficult as teaching algebra because it is mostly a mechanical skill. And if that hurts your feelings, too bad.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 12:25 PM

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 12:34 PM

In several places, the person you are addressing states that she deleted without reading or refused to read a paragraph dealing with an example she found distasteful.

I don't recall saying that I refused to read it, only that I refused to respond. And I clearly stated my reasons for refusing to respond. So you are incorrect.

I think we've all given this individual our best shot at persuasion.

So far your bests shots appear to be...

1. Calling me names (scab, and so on)
2. Personal attacks (my favorite was the Pat Robertson post, but I liked how you called me a angry, bitter person in this post.)

She seems, as R. states to be advocating without any real regard for any other point of view but her own. No wonder she can't get along with the other teachers at her site! What an angry, bitter person!

I get along fine with everyone at my school. When did I suggest otherwise?

Man, you love to jump to conclusions.

Roger Rex

09-26-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote: So far, your suggestions comprise:

1. Dumping the kids onto the other teachers.
2. Making the parents teach the kids.
3. Team teaching (which you need to clarify).
4. Subversively organizing unrest behind the teacher's back

You are not being purposely obtuse I hope.

I said nothing about dumping. You would not send your child to a dentist who ruins their teeth unless he were the only dentist. (Roofer is you wish). It would surprise me that if ten parents refused to allow their children to be taught by one of your "bad teachers" they would soon be shown the door.

I am amazed that you find working within the system "subversive" but going against your union and teacher protection admirable behavior.

We are talking about teachers who are, by your definition, doing irreparable harm to their students, are we not?

From what I gather from this forum and other venues, this is a localized problem. Most people seem to feel the teachers are doing a good job, and polls bear that out. (Bush wishes he had our approval ratings._

Surely parents must be aware if their children are attending classes with bad teaching. If parents complain, the administration of the school and district have the responsibility to retrain or fire the offending teacher. The existing laws have no delicacy about firing a teacher universally disliked by parents. It happens every day. Due process does not protect teachers who teach badly. It does require managment to make a case. Otherwise we will wind up with vigilantism and kangaroo courts that made the teacher protection laws necessary.

Team teaching at our school means that five teachers have the same 32 students in their classes. We meet regularly to help one another deal with issues that come up and to discuss curricullum, lesson plans, adherance to standards, etc. Struggling teachers do better in team environments. I can give you more information, but the studies are out there.

I admire your loyalty to the principal, but wonder why you extend your loyalty upward and not laterally. Our experiences in dealing with struggling teachers is that they are far more likely to respond to help than to cricitism. If you have administrators who allow bad teaching to continue, I think you should consider that supporting such shoddy management is counterproductive. Why would you support that?

The more we converse, the less you convince me that the problems you are experiencing can be changed by removing teacher protection laws. We live in a Democracy - a free society where the price we pay by definition is that in order to protect the innocent, we run the risk of some guilty parties slipping through the system

The system we have works if parents, teachers, administrators carry out their part. It doesn't take all parents or teachers, only a few, if the administrators are willing to take them seriously and do the job of management. We don't need to remove teacher protection. I am sorry the existing laws are not working in your district. I know of municipalities where citizens refuse to help police, but we cannot change state laws to allow police to torture any citizen just because the law doesn't work in noncooperative communities.

I've given you some concrete ways to address the issue. Is that what you want? Or do you simply want to go on living with the problem and ranting against teacher protection laws? The laws are not going to be changed, as Mr. Schawartznegger will soon discover at his political peril. The system is not perfect, but it works.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 02:22 PM

I said nothing about dumping. You would not send your child to a dentist who ruins their teeth unless he were the only dentist. (Roofer is you wish). It would surprise me that if ten parents refused to allow their children to be taught by one of your "bad teachers" they would soon be shown the door.

Again, expecting the parents to take action is not a solution. The whole notion that parents should solve our problems is absurd.

Parents don't get to pick their kids' teachers anyway, so your suggestions simply will not work. Even if parents had that power, it is completely unfair to burden the best teachers with the most kids and, in so doing, lightening the workload of the worst teachers. Your solution would be as bad as the original problem.

Besides, the parents in my region all work. They don't step into the classrooms, so they have no first-hand knowledge of the poor instruction. But we do.

Why aren't teachers establishing their own standards and enforcing them? The AMA certainly does. The ABA does. If a doctor is performing badly, do we just tell the patients that it is up to them? Do we just say, "If the doctor is so bad, patients will quit going to him." The same applies to lawyers.

I am amazed that you find working within the system "subversive" but going against your union and teacher protection admirable behavior.

If I work at IBM and I see one of my fellow colleagues screwing a client over, under no circumstances would I call that client and inform them. My manager would fire me, and deservedly so.

We are talking about teachers who are, by your definition, doing irreparable harm to their students, are we not?

Absolutely, and I seek a solution where teachers are not required to engage in underhanded activity that pits them against their own employers.

From what I gather from this forum and other venues, this is a localized problem. Most people seem to feel the teachers are doing a good job, and polls bear that out.

Link?

But again, teachers have already come in here and stated that teaching effectiveness cannot be judged, and now we are suggesting that parents are qualified judges of teaching effectiveness. Are they or aren't they?

Surely parents must be aware if their children are attending classes with bad teaching. If parents complain, the administration of the school and district have the responsibility to retrain or fire the offending teacher. The existing laws have no delicacy about firing a teacher universally disliked by parents.

Again, most parents in my district do not understand effective teaching. How many parents have stepped into your classroom and watched you teach?

Team teaching at our school means that five teachers have the same 32 students in their classes.

Is Ms. Crappy Teacher ever teaching students in this plan? If so, how can this possibly be a solution?

I admire your loyalty to the principal, but wonder why you extend your loyalty upward and not laterally.

Because the principal doesn't deserve it. Furthermore, our working relation extends far greater than the matter of the teachers we both agree are abominable. Right now we are working on a program to bring local writers to our school to talk to seniors. I am not going to jeopardize a program like that, and I am amazed that you think I should.

Our experiences in dealing with struggling teachers is that they are far more likely to respond to help than to cricitism.

Okay, but now you are describing a STRUGGLING teacher. I am not talking about struggling teachers, but rather those who refuse to respond to help. Those aren't struggling; they're simply bad.

If you have administrators who allow bad teaching to continue, I think you should consider that supporting such shoddy management is counterproductive. Why would you support that?

Loaded question. I never said I SUPPORTED such management, only that I have to deal with the realities of such management.

The more we converse, the less you convince me that the problems you are experiencing can be changed by removing teacher protection laws.

The more we converse, the more you convince me that you don't have any answers. Every suggestion you offer either pits the concerned teacher against his employer, pushes the responsiblity onto parents, or ends up ruining a professional relationship between a concerned teacher and a concerned principal.

It is easy for you to sit down and tell someone else to go over a principal's head and put the principal's job in jeopardy. Or to begin calling parents behind a teacher's back and initiating unrest. Or simply wait for parents to peform the action we should have been doing all along.

We live in a Democracy - a free society where the price we pay by definition is that in order to protect the innocent, we run the risk of some guilty parties slipping through the system

Protecting incompetence is not protecting the innocent. Sorry, but I don't see the connection. If a teacher is shoddy and refuses to get better, they should be replaced no matter how long they have been teaching. If you agree, then we can end this discussion right here.

I've given you some concrete ways to address the issue.

Concrete, but completely impractical.

Unregistered

09-26-2005, 05:43 PM

Barry Trudeau

09-26-2005, 06:48 PM

I've been reading these many pages of dialogue. What a great discussion.
The person who is against teacher tenure (or due process?) doesn't really seem to be listening to anyone though. I thought some of the writers did a pretty fair job of trying to explain, but she seems to be one of those people who would rather complain about other teachers than look for solutions. The parents don't seem to think the teachers are bad teachers, and whatever anyone says, they are the ones who call the shots. She doesn't think parents are smart enough to figure it out. Boy, she should check out my district! If a teacher sneezes on Tuesday parents call it in on Wednesday.
She wants teachers to judge other teachers? I guess she thinks she'll be the one who'll be doing the judging. If I was her principal that sorehead would be the first person I'd fire when tenure gets thrown out.

Roger Rex

09-26-2005, 06:55 PM

Gee, you don't give parents much credit. Teachers either. I take it you have really taken a shine to your boss though. Hmmm.

Sorry if that seems like a low blow, but I thought I very patiently laid out some ways to deal with your situation, and you've managed to dismiss them all without much consideration. I guess you are not really interested in other points of view.

Don't bother responding, I'm looking for more of an open minded forum.
Goodbye to all.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-26-2005, 07:47 PM

Sorry if that seems like a low blow, but I thought I very patiently laid out some ways to deal with your situation, and you've managed to dismiss them all without much consideration.

In other words, your team-teaching idea did in fact have the rotten teacher teaching the kids, didn't it?

Will I get an answer? Probably not. Why? Because the answer is probably "yes."

I asked for a solution, and you said "team teaching"... with absolutely no elaboration. I asked for clarification (which I shouldn't have to do), and your response said nothing about how the team teaching was going to correct the problem. So I asked, "Is the rotten teacher still going to be teaching the kids?" Silence.

Does team teaching have its place? Absolutely. As you said, it is especially good for new teachers. But it isn't going to solve this problem. Now if you want to call that narrow-minded, then be my guest.

I'm done with this discussion as well. I am fed up with the low blows, cheap shots, insults, personal attacks, straw mans, and red herrings. But I guess that is the best we can do.

Unregistered

09-27-2005, 01:29 PM

Wow, this person seems like a bit of a hypocrite. She tells others not to assume anything about herself, but then goes on to assume stuff about others.

Unregistered

09-27-2005, 08:58 PM

have to be payed so little

Maybe because we can't spell paid....come on people!

Unregistered

09-27-2005, 08:59 PM

Quote: "...have to be payed so little..."

Maybe because we can't spell paid....come on people!

Unregistered

09-28-2005, 08:56 AM

Well, screw you and the horse you rode in on.[/QUOTE]

No thank you, but you may wish to address my horse.

If you discuss any subject with a lunatic long enough, sooner or later the madness ends the discussion.

Imagine a teacher who thinks she's so special that she is the yardstick to measure the rest of her profession by. Follow her through this web site as she insults, denigrates, and subverts our profession.

Shame. As if you think this attack on tenure just at the moment when the Gubernator's "special election" takes aim at our protections is coincidental. Make no mistake, the right will never rest until education is controlled, not be the individual teacher, but by them. Lisa Hotflake's essential distrust for teachers as individuals is a thinly disguised attack on freedom. She would no doubt call it the freedom to be a bad teacher, but those who would centralize power have used that arguement since the birth of democracy and will keep on harping till they have killed it.

Everytime a sincere teacher gives her solid reasons for protecting tenure or solutions to her "bad teachers" outside of removing teacher protections, she pretends those arguements are weak or unimportant. Just another way of discounting any point of view that doesn't go along with the one she espouses.

Excuse me L.H. but your motive is showing.

Unregistered

09-28-2005, 09:44 AM

teachers are wankers

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-28-2005, 11:03 AM

Shame. As if you think this attack on tenure just at the moment when the Gubernator's "special election" takes aim at our protections is coincidental.

Nothing new here.

mneill

09-28-2005, 02:15 PM

I agree with that last post! Problem is, it's difficult to quantify who is effective and who is not! I am all for more accountability in our profession, but I also realize that it's not always fair to judge a teacher on the immediate achievement of his or her students. I feel that I do some unbelievable things in my classroom and I often work harder than I need to, but except for my students it often goes unnoticed. It's frustrating, but you do this job because you want to make the world a better place! At least that is why I do it!!!

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-28-2005, 04:35 PM

Problem is, it's difficult to quantify who is effective and who is not! I am all for more accountability in our profession, but I also realize that it's not always fair to judge a teacher on the immediate achievement of his or her students.

It doesn't need to be solely based on student achievement; although at some point student achievement needs to be factored in. But we call ourselves professionals, yet we apparently have no standards, are completely unable to evaluate our own profession, and are incapable of taking action when a change needs to take place.

Benchmarker

09-28-2005, 07:22 PM

..we call ourselves professionals, yet we apparently have no standards, are completely unable to evaluate our own profession, and are incapable of taking action when a change needs to take place.

Who are these teacher haters on this web site?

What profession are you so enthralled with? Doctors? How many MD's do you suppose had their lisence yanked by the AMA last year? Check into it, teacher basher, the only ones they expunge are the ones the cops get first.

Or do you think Lawyers are better at patroling their ranks than we are?

Reality is, taking on teaching is like long distance swimming, if someone stinks, they'll sink pretty quick on their own. Unless the site is administered by total dullards, teachers are fired far more frequently than any other profession. Look up the facts before you start running us down.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-28-2005, 08:00 PM

How many MD's do you suppose had their lisence yanked by the AMA last year? Check into it, teacher basher...

If you already checked into it, then would already have known the number and would have posted it.

Look up the facts before you start running us down.

It is your responsibility to post the facts that support your assertion, not for me to hunt them down for you.

Reality is, taking on teaching is like long distance swimming, if someone stinks, they'll sink pretty quick on their own.

How quick is quick? And define "sink."

Rather than swimming or sinking, they can just float on by. Right?

Benchmarker

09-28-2005, 08:25 PM

according to New York Times:" Of the 2,774 doctors who had made payments in five or more malpractice cases, only 463 – one out of six was disciplined.”

Really, does one need to present you with a thesis to get you to stop pretending you have all the answers?

How many sources would you need cited before you would apologize for attacking our profession publicly?

I looked back at your earlier postings, and you've been going on about how we should be more like the AMA for some time. Did you just pull that analogy out of your purse to denigrate the teacher organizations?

Unregistered

09-29-2005, 02:18 PM

Lisa is the shock jock of this site. She tries to rattle as many cages as possible, taking stances just to excite controversy. Don't rise to her bait; it just encourages her. Visit any web site with a forum like this and you will find people making the widest, unsupported arguements with the Fox News Commentator fake intellectual posture as logic put downs you're seeing here. I think people like Rush and Lisa start out as desperately lonely rejects who only get attention by getting a rise out of normal people who normally wouldn't talk with them. If you give them a platform,you create a monster.

Lisa's Hotscakes

09-29-2005, 02:43 PM

It's funny how you want others to ignore me, but then respond to my every post.

So once again, here goes:

ROAR!!!!

Actually, I am a teacher who has strong opinions about how we should teach students. I'm just less diplomatic about sharing my ideas. I figure we are all adults; we should be able to handle a little controversy.

So why am I hounded? Well...

1. I have a readily identifiable screen name, so posters can analyze the pattern in my posts. It would be easy for me to post as Unregistered and fly below the radar, but that isn't my style.

2. I have a no-excuses stance on most issues surrounding education. If our students fail, that is a reflection on us just as much as on them. Students don't often do homework because we didn't do our job well enough. Students act up in class because we often employ teaching strategies that allow such behavior to surface, and so on.

3. The nature of written communication makes it hard for anyone that doesn't toe the party line to clearly state opinions without pissing off everyone else. I lay my opinions down and let the chips fall where they may.

Ultimately, all that matters to me is the quality of instruction. How many people hate me, despise me, or ridicule me means little. I have been insulted at every turn. I have been called subversive, Right-wing, Bible-thumping... just about any insult you can image. But I can take it.

Unregistered

09-29-2005, 03:05 PM

Our hero.
What a load.
Give it a break.
Find a life.

Unregistered

10-02-2005, 01:09 AM

A bad teacher is one who bad mouths other teachers. One who looks for browny points...simply a "back stabber".

Unregistered

10-07-2005, 09:17 PM

Try paying your mortgage with love. Do doctors not care for their patients? Better yet, shouldn't the extremely wealthy President do his job for the love of his country and her citizens. Why pay him? That certainly is a good question!!!!! DI am shocked from reading some of the posts. I used to be a pharmacist working in one of the most profitable drug store chains in the country making 3 times as much as a teacher with a bachelors degree. However, after all the money I made in the world, I still was not satisfied in my career. My workload was much heavier than any teacher's ( try filling 300 prescriptions in one shift standing on your feet for 8 hours, listening to people complain about their insurance is too high, or doctors who are too busy to consult with you about a patient's prescription). As a graduate student working on my third professional degree, it is upsetting to read comments from educators who are responsible for the education of our children. It saddens me that the focus of some teachers is fueled by money motivation. In other words, perhaps, some of you teachers will be more intentional teachers if you made as much as the average pharmacist ($95,000) and just might actually care about our students' futures. The reason why I chose teaching as a profession has nothing to do with how much money I would make. I love to teach because I love children- I would teach for free. The concern I have for the teachers of 2005 new or tenured is whether you are teaching to help a student achieve higher education or just in it for the money. If you never made more than what you are making at this moment, will you punish your students by not teaching to your fullest potential? In other words, are you teachers intentional teachers or ineffective teachers? An intentional teacher is a teacher whose sole purpose is to properly educate students.

Unregistered

10-19-2005, 02:10 PM

Unregistered

10-19-2005, 10:38 PM

Unregistered

10-20-2005, 10:27 AM

My only question is this....When you went into teaching, you knew (or should have knew) what salary for a teacher was. Why did you go into teaching if you didn't like the salary....Salary shouldn't be a choice in teaching...

Unregistered

10-20-2005, 10:48 AM

In my experience the veteran teachers are often the best teachers on campus.

And often the poorest. Think about the teacher who is simply going through the motions, refusing to take the extra step needed to help certain students, or refusing to become involved in staff development -- usually veteran teachers.

fatty

10-20-2005, 02:24 PM

And often the poorest. Think about the teacher who is simply going through the motions, refusing to take the extra step needed to help certain students, or refusing to become involved in staff development -- usually veteran teachers.
Not on the campuses I have worked on. They are on CIT and coaching UIL teams. They tutor and help newer teachers with lessons. They are mentors too. I guess it just depends on where you work and what the expectations are there.

Unregistered

10-20-2005, 05:21 PM

Think about the teacher who is simply going through the motions, refusing to take the extra step needed to help certain students, or refusing to become involved in staff development -- usually veteran teachers.
Staff development is a joke. I take university courses all summer long to become a better teacher. i visit sites like this one and read and research all the time to improve.
The only purpose of staff development is to satisfy goverment and the bucks they give per head. How degrading!
Whoever wrote the above quote is either an administrator or a toady.

Unregistered

10-20-2005, 06:38 PM

I take university courses all summer long to become a better teacher.

I agree that staff development offered on college campuses is pretty bad, mainly because university profs wouldn't know their own ************ from a hole in the ground when it comes to teaching.

And it doesn't matter. If the faculty are supposed to attend staff development training, then they should attend. Calling in sick is irresponsible and inexcusable. Surely they could get something out of the training.

The only purpose of staff development is to satisfy goverment and the bucks they give per head.

Cut the cynicism. This forum shouldn't look like a collection of college newspaper editorials.

Unregistered

10-20-2005, 11:18 PM

Cut the cynicism? I think cynicism is an appropriate response to political hacks who pick on education to stir up the masses without any regard for what really takes place in the classroom.
That and the judgemental religious hypocrites who take their "love" out on their fellow teachers by preaching against "bad teachers" who don't toe the party line.
And by the way, college is the first and last shot a lot of people get at anything approaching an open mind, so don't knock it.

Unregistered

10-21-2005, 12:03 AM

Cut the cynicism? I think cynicism is an appropriate response to political hacks who pick on education to stir up the masses without any regard for what really takes place in the classroom.

I take special regard for what takes place in the classroom. My entire argument is based on what takes place inside the classroom. So what are you talking about?

That and the judgemental religious hypocrites who take their "love" out on their fellow teachers by preaching against "bad teachers" who don't toe the party line.

What party line and religious arguments are you talking about? I don't recall mentioning Jesus or political parties anywhere in my post.

And by the way, college is the first and last shot a lot of people get at anything approaching an open mind, so don't knock it.]

I'll knock it until they learn to write rational editorials.

Unregistered

11-15-2005, 06:30 PM

Well said!

High school senior

11-21-2005, 12:20 PM

I am doing an english 12 research paper on proplems in the career I intend to enter.
I am going to be a high school spanish teacher, however I am having trouble finding concrete papers on the internet to site if anyone can tell me some problems within either high school teaching or teaching high school span. or where to find this info. it would be much appreciated

Stuck on where to go next!

Unregistered

11-21-2005, 06:36 PM

I have been teaching in one of the five largest cities in the US for the past 12 years, and I have to tell you that if it were not for tenure my fellow teachers and I would still be riding the buses with the students everyday. This is my second career, and after 12 years I am ready to hand in my chalk. This is the hardest and the most unappreciated profession I have ever run across. I am on my feet for 8 hours a day maybe not listening to people complain about their insurance is too high, or doctors who are too busy to consult with you about a patient's prescription, but I have to break up fights and listen to language that would make a sailor blush, and still juggle the curriculum with the standards. And when my day is done I have to go home and grade over 100 papers, and write my lessons for the next day, and try to figure out why Johnny is still falling asleep in class. So no, I do not have the same hours as a pharmacist, my hours are longer! And when I go on vacation I take my laptop so that I can write lessons and grade papers, and my salary is the same as when I left my first profession 12 years ago. Write back in 12 or so years and let us all know how you are surviving on your salary.

Unregistered

11-22-2005, 12:02 PM

Yeah, inner city, I feel your pain. But the worst part is that after giving of yourself in impossible situations day after day, you have to put up with mindless chatter about "bad teachers" from idiots with nothing better to do then bash teachers who take the toughest jobs like the ones you and I have in inner cities. Those teachers in the burbs are living in the American dream world.

Unregistered

11-25-2005, 03:17 PM

Unregistered

11-25-2005, 03:19 PM

But the worst part is that after giving of yourself in impossible situations day after day, you have to put up with mindless chatter about "bad teachers" from idiots with nothing better to do then bash teachers who take the toughest jobs like the ones you and I have in inner cities. Those teachers in the burbs are living in the American dream world.

You are probably referring to me. I don't bash teachers; I bash bad teachers (those teachers who are ineffective and refuse to improve). The alternative is to protect them, and I have no interest in doing that.

I admire good teachers. We need more of them.

Unregistered

11-27-2005, 10:16 PM

Anyone consider themselves a bad teacher?

BigDaddyTeacher

11-28-2005, 12:03 PM

Anyone consider themselves a bad teacher?

Mabye. I feel I am a bad teacher when I lose my temper in the classroom, for any reason. Hate myself when it happens (which, to be fair, is hardly ever). But when I do, the kids know, 'cause I bring out "The Big Voice." (I sing bass in a choir, and can hit a low 'C').

Dr. Chen

11-28-2005, 08:24 PM

You know Big D., I think your answering the question as to who's a bad teacher in the affirmative might be like the question about racism. Everybody is a racist except the one guy who has admitted it and is trying to deal with it. The folks who are in denial about it are the worst cases.
There are quite a few people (or maybe they just write a lot) who go on and on about what a great teacher they are and how important it is to root out the bad ones. I'm willing to bet a guy like you with at least enough character to be self reflective, is worth a basketful of the holier than thou types who just haven't taken a long enough look in the mirror.

Unregistered

11-29-2005, 04:04 AM

There are quite a few people (or maybe they just write a lot) who go on and on about what a great teacher they are and how important it is to root out the bad ones.

So what should we do with the bad ones, Dr. Chen? Should we attempt to identify them, or should we leave them alone to continue practicing their craft?

I'm willing to bet a guy like you with at least enough character to be self reflective, is worth a basketful of the holier than thou types who just haven't taken a long enough look in the mirror.

Are there any bad teachers, Dr. Chen? Can they be identified? If so, by whom?

Go ahead and answer the questions, and we can take it from there.

BigDaddyTeacher

11-29-2005, 03:10 PM

You know Big D. ... I'm willing to bet a guy like you with at least enough character to be self reflective, is worth a basketful of the holier than thou types who just haven't taken a long enough look in the mirror.

Hey Doc, thanks for the kind words.

Are there any bad teachers, Dr. Chen? Can they be identified? If so, by whom?

Go ahead and answer the questions, and we can take it from there.

If I may be so bold, I think it has to do with Dr. Chen's response to my earlier post.
Are there bad teachers? Statistically speaking, yes I believe there are bad teachers out there, just as there are bad (insert your profession of choice here) as well.

Can they be identified? A strong, resounding mabye. I believe it centers around self-reflection. If a teacher does not perceive herself/himself to be bad, then they will continue as if they are the best teacher around, and consequences be damned. Other teachers who feel that they can identify a 'bad' teacher are, I believe, basing their opinion on their own teaching style. "That teacher doesn't teach vocabulary like I do...they must be doing it wrong. Therefore, they're a bad teacher." We really cannot force our opinions/beliefs/stratagies on others.

So, who do we trust when we want to weed out the bad teachers? And, what really constitutes bad: Ineffective lessons? Alternate teaching styles? Obvious lapses in judgement? The kid in seat 4, row 5 who says so?

Then we have to turn to the case of, are the children learning what they are supposed to be learning? Whether or not the teacher in question is presenting the information in a school-mandated manner could be grounds for being labeled 'bad'; but if the students have learned the material, and can prove they know the material to the powers that be, does that make the teacher bad because they taught 'outside the box?'

I know, I know, lots of cheese and not a lot of meat here. But, perhaps I don't feel qualified to say who among my fellow teachers is a 'bad' one.

anyone else?

Dr. Chen

11-29-2005, 03:38 PM

But, perhaps I don't feel qualified to say who among my fellow teachers is a 'bad' one.

anyone else?

Another excellent response. Sure, there is a measure of ambiguity in your answer, but a certain hesitation in judging others is virtue. To quote Garrison Keilor, "A person without doubts is a monster."

Are there bad children? I have never met one, even when I visited murderers in Youth Prison.

When we discipline our children, we ought to be careful to decry their behavior rather than their persons. "You have done something wrong," opens a dialogue. "You are a bad person," ends the story.

So, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is simply dispensing of those who do not meet your personal standards,then blame is the game for you. If you wish to help others improve, which I believe is a pretty good working defiition of "education" then identifying harmful or unproductive behavior should be our aim.

My earlier point still stands: those who are quick to condemn others are generally blind to their own faults. The need to afix blame is an awkward attempt to transfer feelings of inadequacy. One can never exonerate one's own demons through violence toward others.

The pathological need to find the "bad teachers" and root them out is a sad response from a deeply insecure personality. Such a person can be a danger to the profession far worse than those who simply fail to meet the standards of productive work we all should work toward.

Unregistered

11-29-2005, 07:51 PM

If I may be so bold, I think it has to do with Dr. Chen's response to my earlier post.

Are there bad teachers? Statistically speaking, yes I believe there are bad teachers out there, just as there are bad (insert your profession of choice here) as well.

Okay, so there ARE bad teachers out there. Now we're getting somewhere.

Can they be identified? A strong, resounding mabye.

How can you have a strong, resounding MAYBE?

I believe it centers around self-reflection. If a teacher does not perceive herself/himself to be bad, then they will continue as if they are the best teacher around, and consequences be damned.

Wait a minute! If a teacher does not perceive himself to be a bad teacher, then they automatically act is if they are the best around? They cannot just think they're doing a decent job?

When did teachers become obligated to think they teach poorly? Whatever happened to the notion of confidence?

Other teachers who feel that they can identify a 'bad' teacher are, I believe, basing their opinion on their own teaching style.

Or on educational research and common sense? Did you consider those?

"That teacher doesn't teach vocabulary like I do...they must be doing it wrong. Therefore, they're a bad teacher." We really cannot force our opinions/beliefs/stratagies on others.

Okay, so a teacher who makes no attempt to explain the meanings of strange words to English Learners cannot be judged, even after being informed of the problem? That whether or not a teacher should use strategies to overcome language and cognitive barriers is simply a matter of opinion?

Think about what you are saying -- that whether or not a method is effective is a matter of opinion. Baloney! There ARE effective methods, and there ARE ineffective methods. Education research can verify that fact. This isn't voodoo.

We have one teacher whose teaching style is to hand out a worksheet on material she has not yet taught, then bounce from one student to another helping them. That is tutoring, not teaching (and bad tutoring at that). Some poor kids raise their hands for ten minutes before getting any help. Some don't get any help at all before the period ends. And yes, her students' test scores are abysmal. I can hire any bum on the street to teach like that.

But to you, we cannot judge her teaching. We should just let her continue to sabotage every kid in her class' future. Maybe someone else will do something about it. (Maybe not.)

I say damn that! We have an obligation to the kids in our community to point out instances where kids are being disadvantaged. I am not interested in "going along to get along."

So, who do we trust when we want to weed out the bad teachers? And, what really constitutes bad: Ineffective lessons? Alternate teaching styles? Obvious lapses in judgement? The kid in seat 4, row 5 who says so?

"Ineffective lessons" sound pretty good to me. Isn't that our primary goal in teaching, to produce effective lessons so that our students learn? If we fail to do that, are we not failing to do our job properly?

Then we have to turn to the case of, are the children learning what they are supposed to be learning? Whether or not the teacher in question is presenting the information in a school-mandated manner could be grounds for being labeled 'bad'; but if the students have learned the material, and can prove they know the material to the powers that be, does that make the teacher bad because they taught 'outside the box?'

I have no problems with those teachers whose students demonstrate proficiency. What about those that do not... year after year, class after class? Should someone take action?

I know, I know, lots of cheese and not a lot of meat here. But, perhaps I don't feel qualified to say who among my fellow teachers is a 'bad' one.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist, feel free. If you want to acknowledge the problem but refuse to "get involved," that's your choice. But come out and admit it, rather than trying to suggest that bad teaching cannot be identified (it clearly can be).

Unregistered

11-29-2005, 07:55 PM

Sure, there is a measure of ambiguity in your answer, but a certain hesitation in judging others is virtue.

Later on we get (from the same post):

...those who are quick to condemn others are generally blind to their own faults.

Sounds pretty judgmental to me. Not that no one in this forum has ever judged me.

Hypocrites.

Unregistered

11-29-2005, 08:05 PM

Are there bad children? I have never met one, even when I visited murderers in Youth Prison.

So if a child cannot achieve the label of "bad" even by killing people, then what exactly does a bad child have to do? Genocide? Or does he have to be the son of Satan himself?

If there are no such things as bad people, then the only alternative is to assume that there are no such things as good people. I'm not sure you like it, but that is what your logic suggests.

When we discipline our children, we ought to be careful to decry their behavior rather than their persons. "You have done something wrong," opens a dialogue. "You are a bad person," ends the story.

Okay, let's change "bad teachers" to "teachers whose teaching absolutely ****************s!" So now we are labelling the behavior, and not the teacher. Happy now?

So, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is simply dispensing of those who do not meet your personal standards,then blame is the game for you.

These are standards that are established by society. We expect our kids to be able to do and know certain things. Those teachers who cannot teach well enough for students to reach those levels of proficiency are living up to the standards set by SOCIETY. It isn't my standard.

If you wish to help others improve, which I believe is a pretty good working defiition of "education" then identifying harmful or unproductive behavior should be our aim.

Do you extend your logic to harmful and unproductive teaching?

If so, then you will have to battle it out with the other poster who claims that we don't even know if such teaching can be identified in the first place.

The pathological need to find the "bad teachers" and root them out is a sad response from a deeply insecure personality.

What was it you said about judging others? Let me think... oh yeah:

hose who are quick to condemn others are generally blind to their own faults.

You couldn't be more hypocritical if you tried.

mildred

11-29-2005, 09:00 PM

I think some of you are confusing "judging" with "discernment". There is a huge difference between realizing that there is someone in the room who is behaving badly and trying to punish. In think that Big Daddy Teacher and Dr. Chen are saying that we can point out behavior that we don't agree with. The other person, who seems so very angry, is looking to go after other teachers. It sounds like he hates the teacher with the teaching style he doesn't like in the school he teaches at. His words are full of anger, judgement, and hostility. Recognizing bad behavior or a bad attitude, even calling attention to it, is a long way from going after a colleagues job, or for that matter calling someone a hypocrite because they disagree. Why must you be so full of hatred?

I think Dr. Chen and Big Daddy are very kind to keep trying to explain how to deal with people you disagree with without attacking. The angry person, or persons, should take a deep breath and try to understand. You aren't going to change the world by judging others. By that I mean that if you really do have something better than someone else, you should try to share your knowledge, not use it to play one upmanship. You can discern someone's need to improve without wishing them harm or "judging" by suggesting they should be disposed of. Calm down and listen to someone else besides your own anger.

Unregistered

11-29-2005, 10:52 PM

There is a huge difference between realizing that there is someone in the room who is behaving badly and trying to punish.

Oh, calling someone a "deeply insecure personality" is just pointing out behavior? There is no judgement there?

Why must you be so full of hatred?

Loaded question. I don't hate anyone and I resent your attaching that label to my viewpoint. Don't be so presumptuous.

Calm down and listen to someone else besides your own anger.

Why don't you sit down and realize we have a serious problem that needs addressing, and quit trying to protect those that disadvantage kids. Everyone seems so damned concerned about the teachers' feelings. What about the kids that are not going to go to college? What about their futures? How do you think their parents are going to feel?

Or does anyone really care? I am starting to wonder.

Recognizing bad behavior or a bad attitude, even calling attention to it, is a long way from going after a colleagues job, or for that matter calling someone a hypocrite because they disagree.

We have a serious problem. One of our teachers (actually, about a half dozen) are employing teaching practices that are an abomination. And all you want to do is recognize it, or point it out. What do you propose we actually DO ABOUT IT?

And if all you can say is that we should recognize and point out the bad behavior, then you have no answers. At least admit it.

mildred

11-29-2005, 11:53 PM

Oh, calling someone a "deeply insecure personality" is just pointing out behavior? There is no judgement there?

And all you want to do is recognize it, or point it out. What do you propose we actually DO ABOUT IT?

And if all you can say is that we should recognize and point out the bad behavior, then you have no answers. At least admit it.

More to the point, what do you plan? Your own private inquisition? Do you think you are the only teacher who has ever been dissatisfied with the faults of others? What is so silly about your response is this stubborn disregard for the only real solution. Mature people who have disagreements confront others in a reasonable manner. For all your ranting, you don't really have a choice here. You can't arrest them for not living up to your standards. If you had the power to fire them, they'd be gone already. So unless youre planning to bring your Uzi to school tomorrow, the only hope you have for change is learning how to communicate effectively. But you're going to have to calm down first. If you're as intractable with your peers as you have been in this discussion, you can't really blame others for shunning you.

Unregistered

11-30-2005, 01:04 AM

More to the point, what do you plan? Your own private inquisition?

I'm so sick of you sweet kindness freaks telling me what to do. I hate all the bad teachers who won't listen to me and refuse to give me the respect I crave. My plan is to eliminate all the bad people so the world will be just like my classroom. Me in charge and all others groveling for my approval for a change!

Unregistered

11-30-2005, 01:15 AM

Mature people who have disagreements confront others in a reasonable manner.

Principals have tried to to change this teacher's behavior for 12 years now. When a teacher is lazy and doesn't care, nothing is going to make the teacher pour out effort and try to improve.

And why should they? They get their paycheck regardless. If they were really motivated to be the best they can be, they would tried to do so years ago. To them, the formula is simple: More effort does not equal more money so...

One of our teachers admits that her methods are weak. But year after year, nothing changes. When a trainer shows up to watch her class, she calls in sick. She refuses to attend meetings and is the first person to head to the parking lot each day. They call this "mailing it in."

And each day she teaches, another kid will fail to succeed at the next level. But we shouldn't "judge" her, right? We should just say that the incredibly low scores turned in my her students are merely a matter of opinion, correct?

Some of you idealists think that all teachers care. We say it all the time, but it simply is not true. There are teachers out there that do not care. And that is the reality we have to face.

Now, am I advocating that we shoot her with an uzi? Of course not. This discussion was about whether or not a teacher's methods can be judged. The notion that we cannot evaluate the worth of each other's methods is ridiculous. Carpenters can point out faulty carpentry. Doctors can point out faulty medicine. Lawyers can point out faulty legal advice. And in college we pointed out bad teachers to our friends all the time. But somehow we are incapable of identifying faulty teaching? If so, we are either dumb or blind.

Oh, calling someone a "deeply insecure personality" is just pointing out behavior? There is no judgement there?

Care to respond?

Unregistered

11-30-2005, 01:40 PM

BigDaddyTeacher

11-30-2005, 09:49 PM

Big Daddy here, making a long post even longer! Bless you all for keeping this thread civil!

First, a bit from Dr. Chen:

So, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is simply dispensing of those who do not meet your personal standards, then blame is the game for you. If you wish to help others improve, which I believe is a pretty good working definition of "education" then identifying harmful or unproductive behavior should be our aim.

Well said. It is very easy to jump to conclusions about anything, teaching styles included. Yes, I did say that I don’t feel qualified to judge others. But, as Mildred pointed out:

If you would use the term "evaluate" rather than "judge" more people would understand that you are talking about finding solutions instead of just looking to punish others.

This is also an excellent point. Many conflicts in our world have been started over the perceived definition or use of one word. Does this change in vernacular lessen our concern over the perceived bad teacher? Not in the least. We’re just taking a kinder, gentler approach.

Dr. Chen’s opinion echoes this style of speaking:

When we discipline our children, we ought to be careful to decry their behavior rather than their persons. "You have done something wrong," opens a dialogue. "You are a bad person," ends the story.

As a parent, I agree. It’s the behavior that’s bad, not the child. (this could start another entire thread on “are there bad children.” But, I digress…). I believe this is the tact we should take when discussing any type of behavior with each other. During my stint as a Student Teacher, my mentors and advisors would discuss what procedures were ‘bad’ – not me as a ‘bad teacher.’ Perhaps this dummies down what we want to accomplish with the teacher who needs help, but I believe it would work better than attacking the person.

Now, UNREG #123 brings up an interesting response to my original post:

Wait a minute! If a teacher does not perceive himself to be a bad teacher, then they automatically act is if they are the best around? They cannot just think they're doing a decent job?

Actually, I would disagree with this. If a person (teacher, businessperson, cashier, etc), doesn’t think they are doing a bad job, then to them, they MUST be doing a good job. Remember, I’m working from the premise of self-reflection being a key factor here. So, when you add confidence into the mix, we have a confident, oblivious teacher who thinks s/he’s God’s Gift To The Classroom! IMHO, a recipe for disaster.

#123 continues:

Think about what you are saying -- that whether or not a method is effective is a matter of opinion. Baloney! There ARE effective methods, and there ARE ineffective methods. Education research can verify that fact. This isn't voodoo.

…which refers to my suggestion we jump to the conclusion that a teacher is bad because they don’t teach a subject the same way you/I do. Yes, there are both effective and ineffective teaching methods. However, whether a method is one or the other could be considered a matter of opinion, as well as a researched theory.
In my original post, I opined:

Then we have to turn to the case of, are the children learning what they are supposed to be learning? Whether or not the teacher in question is presenting the information in a school-mandated manner could be grounds for being labeled 'bad'; but if the students have learned the material, and can prove they know the material to the powers that be, does that make the teacher bad because they taught 'outside the box?'

I still feel this is valid reasoning. What works for one may or may not work for others. As long as the material (i.e., the educational standards for your state) are covered and presented, and the students understand the material and can show their proficiency, then clearly that teacher’s teaching methods are working, whether we agree with them or not.

UNREG #123 agrees, somewhat, with me:

I have no problems with those teachers whose students demonstrate proficiency. What about those that do not... year after year, class after class? Should someone take action?

Damn straight – someone should take action. That would be our glorious administration, may they be blessed in their lifetime. Although I am loathe to judge, I would have no problem being asked to evaluate another person’s teaching style – up to the point where I could say, “Well, the students have proven to me that they understand the material being taught, so it appears as if this teacher is effective.” Or, conversely, “It seems as if the lesson was off the mark. The students are unable to show they understand the material that was presented.” That’s my opinion of their teaching style, focused on the student’s learning capacity. It’s up to the powers that be to do what they will with the information.

Lastly, #123 says:

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist, feel free. If you want to acknowledge the problem but refuse to "get involved," that's your choice. But come out and admit it, rather than trying to suggest that bad teaching cannot be identified (it clearly can be).

Well, I’m not one to bury my head in the sand. I just don’t want to create an unstoppable sandstorm. I don’t believe I said that bad teaching can’t be identified (quote me if I’m wrong, please!). I just think that before we label a person a bad teacher, we should evaluate the methods first, then the person delivering the message.

I know there were other, wonderful responses to my post - but this was getting too long as it was.

BigDaddyTeacher

11-30-2005, 09:55 PM

Big Daddy here, making a long post even longer! Bless you all for keeping this thread civil!

First, a bit from Dr. Chen:

So, it depends on what you want to accomplish. If your goal is simply dispensing of those who do not meet your personal standards, then blame is the game for you. If you wish to help others improve, which I believe is a pretty good working definition of "education" then identifying harmful or unproductive behavior should be our aim.

Well said. It is very easy to jump to conclusions about anything, teaching styles included. Yes, I did say that I don’t feel qualified to judge others. But, as Mildred pointed out:

If you would use the term "evaluate" rather than "judge" more people would understand that you are talking about finding solutions instead of just looking to punish others.

This is also an excellent point. Many conflicts in our world have been started over the perceived definition or use of one word. Does this change in vernacular lessen our concern over the perceived bad teacher? Not in the least. We’re just taking a kinder, gentler approach.

Dr. Chen’s opinion echoes this style of speaking:

When we discipline our children, we ought to be careful to decry their behavior rather than their persons. "You have done something wrong," opens a dialogue. "You are a bad person," ends the story.

As a parent, I agree. It’s the behavior that’s bad, not the child. (this could start another entire thread on “are there bad children.” But, I digress…). I believe this is the tact we should take when discussing any type of behavior with each other. During my stint as a Student Teacher, my mentors and advisors would discuss what procedures were ‘bad’ – not me as a ‘bad teacher.’ Perhaps this dummies down what we want to accomplish with the teacher who needs help, but I believe it would work better than attacking the person.

Now, UNREG #123 brings up an interesting response to my original post:

Wait a minute! If a teacher does not perceive himself to be a bad teacher, then they automatically act is if they are the best around? They cannot just think they're doing a decent job?

Actually, I would disagree with this. If a person (teacher, businessperson, cashier, etc), doesn’t think they are doing a bad job, then to them, they MUST be doing a good job. Remember, I’m working from the premise of self-reflection being a key factor here. So, when you add confidence into the mix, we have a confident, oblivious teacher who thinks s/he’s God’s Gift To The Classroom! IMHO, a recipe for disaster.

#123 continues:

Think about what you are saying -- that whether or not a method is effective is a matter of opinion. Baloney! There ARE effective methods, and there ARE ineffective methods. Education research can verify that fact. This isn't voodoo.

…which refers to my suggestion we jump to the conclusion that a teacher is bad because they don’t teach a subject the same way you/I do. Yes, there are both effective and ineffective teaching methods. However, whether a method is one or the other could be considered a matter of opinion, as well as a researched theory.
In my original post, I opined:

Then we have to turn to the case of, are the children learning what they are supposed to be learning? Whether or not the teacher in question is presenting the information in a school-mandated manner could be grounds for being labeled 'bad'; but if the students have learned the material, and can prove they know the material to the powers that be, does that make the teacher bad because they taught 'outside the box?'

I still feel this is valid reasoning. What works for one may or may not work for others. As long as the material (i.e., the educational standards for your state) are covered and presented, and the students understand the material and can show their proficiency, then clearly that teacher’s teaching methods are working, whether we agree with them or not.

UNREG #123 agrees, somewhat, with me:

I have no problems with those teachers whose students demonstrate proficiency. What about those that do not... year after year, class after class? Should someone take action?

Damn straight – someone should take action. That would be our glorious administration, may they be blessed in their lifetime. Although I am loathe to judge, I would have no problem being asked to evaluate another person’s teaching style – up to the point where I could say, “Well, the students have proven to me that they understand the material being taught.” Or, conversely, “It seems as if the lesson was off the mark. The students are unable to show they understand the material that was presented.” That’s my opinion of their teaching style, focused on the student’s learning capacity. It’s up to the powers that be to do what they will with the information.

Lastly, #123 says:

If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist, feel free. If you want to acknowledge the problem but refuse to "get involved," that's your choice. But come out and admit it, rather than trying to suggest that bad teaching cannot be identified (it clearly can be).

Well, I’m not one to bury my head in the sand. I just don’t want to create an unstoppable sandstorm. I don’t believe I said that bad teaching can’t be identified (quote me if I’m wrong, please!). I just think that before we label a person a bad teacher, we should evaluate the methods first, then the person delivering the message.

I know there were other, wonderful responses to my post - but this was getting too long as it was.

Unregistered

11-30-2005, 11:34 PM

If you would use the term "evaluate" rather than "judge" more people would understand that you are talking about finding solutions instead of just looking to punish others. At any rate, whether someone is being evaluated, judged, or discerned(?), this is a job that calls for diplomacy and tact.

And if diplomacy and tact have no effect, then what?

You make no effort to fill gaps in your logic. The fact that diplomacy and tact were not going to work in this situation was obvious from my post, but you made no attempt to address the situation. Instead, the problem with this teacher's ineffectiveness is somehow OUR fault, because we just haven't been nice enough to her.

One professional confronting another in a critical fashion is a situation loaded with negative potential.

As opposed to the negative certainty that being diplomatic is going to generate?

You really think that people can be sweet-talked into anything. The reality is that some people are completely immune to such strategy because, as they see it, there is nothing in it for them. A teacher who cares less about the success of her students has no motivation for improving, and no amount of diplomacy and tact is going to make that teacher change.

If it is a positive outcome we are looking for, we must be careful in such delicate matters.

Okay, what would you tell that teacher that would make her work harder to become better?

You may counter that these teachers your site has somehow become burdened by need a chainsaw and not a scalpel, but given the world as it is, needlessly violent action will only either further entrench them or alienate others. I stiill firmly believe that your best course of action is to befriend and counsel those you wish to help improve.

And what if that doesn't work? You continuously refuse to address that situation.

On the other hand ,if all you're looking for is revenge, you better dig two graves.

Just for once, can you quit being so presumptuous about my motives?

Unregistered

11-30-2005, 11:44 PM

Actually, I would disagree with this. If a person (teacher, businessperson, cashier, etc), doesn’t think they are doing a bad job, then to them, they MUST be doing a good job.

False premise. A teacher who doesn't think they are doing a bad job can think they are doing a decent job and know they can still improve.

Remember, I’m working from the premise of self-reflection being a key factor here.

This assumes that any teacher who is self-reflective thinks they are doing a bad job. A teacher who is self-reflective can think she is doing a good job if she is really doing a great job.

Your argument assumes that true self-reflection can only produce one result: The teacher assuming she is doing a bad job.

So, when you add confidence into the mix, we have a confident, oblivious...

How did the term "oblivious" get slipped in here?

teacher who thinks s/he’s God’s Gift To The Classroom! IMHO, a recipe for disaster.

And you end your argument with the slippery slope fallacy. Sure, it is POSSIBLE that a teacher can end up thinking she's God's Gift to the Classroom. But in no way have you logically deduced that such an outcome is certain, or even likely.

So let me ask you, Big Daddy. Do you think you are doing a bad job?

Unregistered

12-01-2005, 12:33 AM

…which refers to my suggestion we jump to the conclusion that a teacher is bad because they don’t teach a subject the same way you/I do.

No, let me say it again: It isn't about what you or I say it is. Research is not based on appeals to authority. What is effective and what isn't depends on how students learn, not how one feels about it.

Is the efficacy tough to discern for some methods? Of course. But that isn't the problem we have at our school. These teachers are not employing methods that are in question -- they really don't even have a method.

Yes, there are both effective and ineffective teaching methods. However, whether a method is one or the other could be considered a matter of opinion, as well as a researched theory.

Are you willing to admit that there are teaching methods that are clearly ineffective?

Damn straight – someone should take action.

Obviously, the answer to my question must be yes. Which is all I have been saying all along.

Well, I’m not one to bury my head in the sand. I just don’t want to create an unstoppable sandstorm. I don’t believe I said that bad teaching can’t be identified (quote me if I’m wrong, please!). I just think that before we label a person a bad teacher, we should evaluate the methods first, then the person delivering the message.

I think we agree more than we disagree. I never said that every teaching method can be labeled effective or ineffective. Clearly the jury is out on many methods as more research and thought needs to be carried out. But there are such things as ineffective methods that can be labeled as such. And if you agree, then I don't see why we are arguing.

By the way, a bad teacher is one whose methods are clearly ineffective and cares not to improve. Refusing to improve goes beyond mere behavior and reflects the person herself. THat is why diplomacy and tact are not always fruitful -- the person will not respond because the very nature of what diplomacy and tact require--personal responsibility and caring--is not present.

BigDaddyTeacher

12-01-2005, 11:46 AM

Are you willing to admit that there are teaching methods that are clearly ineffective?

Yes. Mabye I didn't make myself clear enough. Based on what I have observed in the classroom, I would agree I have seen clearly ineffective teaching methods. However (oh no, here he goes again), I don't feel it's my place to remove that teacher from the classroom. It's my job as an observer/evaluator to inform the proper people at the school site of the results of my eval, and let them take it from there. If I'm asked to elaborate, I'll do that. But, I won't go talking about that teacher behind their back to others - I'll present my info in a formal setting - where, hopefully, the teacher in question is present.

I think we agree more than we disagree... And if you agree, then I don't see why we are arguing.

Crud. I didn't think we were arguing, just presenting our opinions for discussion. I apologize if I gave that impression.

By the way, a bad teacher is one whose methods are clearly ineffective and cares not to improve. Refusing to improve goes beyond mere behavior and reflects the person herself. That is why diplomacy and tact are not always fruitful -- the person will not respond because the very nature of what diplomacy and tact require--personal responsibility and caring--is not present.

Indeed. Diplomacy is not always fruitful, but is alway my first choice. If I need to be harsher, I'll increase the pressure.

So let me ask you, Big Daddy. Do you think you are doing a bad job?

Well, according to my recent evaluations, no I'm not. And my students & their parents are quite happy with my work. Reflectively speaking...and this is not a cop out... I always belive there is room for improvement. I feel I'm doing a pretty good job right now - but I'm looking for ways to increase my effectiveness as we speak: Im working on my masters in C&I right now, and am studying for single subject exams for higher math skills and English.
So, all things considered, no - I'm doing a great job. How's about you?

Unregistered

12-02-2005, 09:56 PM

Yes. Mabye I didn't make myself clear enough. Based on what I have observed in the classroom, I would agree I have seen clearly ineffective teaching methods. However (oh no, here he goes again), I don't feel it's my place to remove that teacher from the classroom. It's my job as an observer/evaluator to inform the proper people at the school site of the results of my eval, and let them take it from there.

And there we agree. I never said it was my job to remove the teacher either. However, I should be able to form an opinion that a teacher is doing a poor job and advocate their removal.

If I'm asked to elaborate, I'll do that. But, I won't go talking about that teacher behind their back to others - I'll present my info in a formal setting - where, hopefully, the teacher in question is present.

Yes, if we are going to form the opinion we should be willing to confront the teacher with our opinions.

Crud. I didn't think we were arguing, just presenting our opinions for discussion. I apologize if I gave that impression.

Well, that is how I felt about it too. I think we are able to disagree and keep it on an objective level.

Well, according to my recent evaluations, no I'm not. And my students & their parents are quite happy with my work. Reflectively speaking...and this is not a cop out... I always belive there is room for improvement. I feel I'm doing a pretty good job right now

This contradicts what you posted earlier. But I think your latest opinion is much more reasonable. I never did understand why you posted your earlier statement -- it didn't sound like you at all.

- but I'm looking for ways to increase my effectiveness as we speak: Im working on my masters in C&I right now, and am studying for single subject exams for higher math skills and English. So, all things considered, no - I'm doing a great job. How's about you?

I feel pretty much the same way that you do. I feel I am doing a great job, and nothing appears to contradict that viewpoint. Parents, fellow teachers, students, test scores, and administration tend to cast a favorable view on my teaching. Can't the say the same for some of my colleagues.

BigDaddyTeacher

12-03-2005, 02:59 PM

This contradicts what you posted earlier. But I think your latest opinion is much more reasonable. I never did understand why you posted your earlier statement -- it didn't sound like you at all.

It was my evil twin brother Fred from Australia.

Unregistered

12-03-2005, 05:06 PM

Is Fred a union rep? :D

Unregistered

12-03-2005, 10:56 PM

If it wasn't for the union rep, you'd still be working for chicken dinners at students homes and sweeping the floor after the kids leave.

Unregistered

12-04-2005, 01:49 AM

If it wasn't for the union rep, you'd still be working for chicken dinners at students homes and sweeping the floor after the kids leave.

Some people have no sense of humor.

Unregistered

12-04-2005, 06:00 PM

Othere are ungrateful and try to cover their hardness of heart with cruel jibes.

Unregistered

12-05-2005, 01:42 AM

You, by definition, are oversensitive. That's your problem, not mine.

Naive Teacher-to-Be

12-05-2005, 11:18 AM

Disclaimer: Any of the following that appears at all to be offensive is NOT intended to be so. If you're offended at any point, stop reading because I take absolutely no responsibility for the offense. Also, I'm not a scab (No job yet hehe), I'm not a covert corporate (religious, governmental, etc.) operative sent to undermine the state of affairs of Education, although I would like to see some changes.

Wow, that was a lot to take in. I'll be honest. After page 9 I started skimming. I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I'm probably just a naive teacher-to-be, but I follow the school of thought that one's ideas don't have to be based in experience (as long as both sides are weighed). However, I did go to school for 13 years (+4 college), so I've seen many things.

Are there bad teachers? Just to be absolutely clear, by bad teacher I mean ineffective teacher, which is very broad. Yes, there are ineffective teachers, and they exhibit many of the following problems: classroom management, uninteresting lessons (failure to take students' previous knowledge into account), a lack of caring, as well as many other problems. I know that there are ineffective teachers because I was taught by a number of them in high school (probably elementary, too). I was also taught by a few great teachers, who made me want to go into teaching. Mostly, though, I was taught by so-so teachers; nothing to get excited over.

What should be done about these teachers? As educators, we should try to educate them. We should show them researched and commonsense methods to improve their management and instruction skills. They can be monitored and reviewed as often as possible (resource hog, but an investment for future students). If they fail, review them again, give them workshops and particular skills to exhibit, then review them again. You could give this process the better part of a school-year. Keep on them. They may even quit. If, throughout a school-year, they haven't utilized any of the methods you've been showing them, it would seem to point to a lack of desire to teach effectively or a general inability to teach. If this is the case, you have reviewed and DOCUMENTED a large part of their teaching and it would seem perfectly just to terminate them. They obviously lack the desire or ability to teach. They may file for an appeal, in which case they can have a hearing with the school board and maybe even a jury of their peers (who are randomly selected and have reviewed their teaching). This is my idea for policy (which I'm sure is not in place), but would go along with the "due process" idea.

Should we eliminate "tenure?" If, by tenure, you mean the inability to be terminated without just cause, the answer is definitely "Yes." However, there are many political school districts (my high school's, for example) that may unfairly terminate a teacher based on a political, authoritarian administration (which, of course, not every district is - big fish, small pond syndrome). So, to alleviate these concerns, we should have a system in place to give sort of a "due process" to firing teachers. But we can't hide behind the name "due process" if it really means tenure. I'm not that familiar with the laws, so I can't make a proper distinction.

Question: (Based on genuine ignorance, not meant to incite argument) A teacher wrongly fired can sue a school district, can't they? Perhaps we (I) are giving ourselves too much work. Let the courts handle it. If a school district wrongly fires a teacher, and is sued by said teacher, taxes will go up to make up for the lost money which will cause taxpayers to be angry and demand that administrator to be relieved of his or her position. That way we don't even have to worry about tenure/due process/etc. - the courts will ensure a teacher's right to unbiased employment (Just like they do for everyone else). However, this is only if teachers can sue school districts (as in my question), of which I am not sure. If they can't, they either ought to be able to, or we have to go back to the due process idea.

To sum up, I have witnessed enough ineffective teachers (although not as many as professors) to say that they do exist, and teacher accountability is a must. We don't have to fire them, of course, but educate them as we educate everyone else. However, I don't think that termination can be completely out of the question, or else there is no reason for a teacher to change their teaching methodology. There also should be measures in place (lawsuits or due process) which can give assurance that teachers can teach without fear of inappropriate termination (as with every other occupation).

Thanks for taking the time to read my OPINIONS on this matter. Just remember, teaching is all about students. That should be why every teacher chooses this profession. We all know it's a job that is oftentimes without gratitude, but the desire to change teaching, learning and education should be a driving force within all of us (Hopefully not borderline Dr. Phil...I don't think he's very effective at solving people's problems).

Note: Despite my disclaimer, Dr. Phil may be offended with my previous comment, but he is the only one. Any offense done is done by oneself. The following are not to be viewed as offensive, but constructive in nature. However, the nature of internet communication often leaves to ambiguity in meaning.

@Lisa: I'm not sure if you dropped off, or if you just stopped writing your name at the top (which is reasonable considering your frequency of posting). You have basically the same ideas as myself, although I wish at first you had qualified that teachers should be fired only after other measures had been exhausted. You also are right that there are ineffective teachers and that something absolutely must be done about it.

@Tenure-ists: (Sorry, I can't remember a name) You are absolutely justified in wanting not to be unfairly terminated. However, I think you'd agree that some teachers need extra guidance in performing on par with effective teachers. And I think you'd also agree that some measure (not necessarily harsh) should be taken to ensure that teachers are doing their best to educate their students. And, lastly, I think you'd agree that if (even if only hypothetically) there was a teacher who, after months of additional support by various teachers/administrators/etc. was either unwilling or incapable of teaching effectively (classroom management, interesting lessons, considering student needs/abilities), they should no longer be allowed to teach. This is assuming, of course, that all of this is documented by a wide range of professionals, along with the ability to appeal and/or sue the school district.

Unregistered

12-05-2005, 08:02 PM

@Lisa: I'm not sure if you dropped off, or if you just stopped writing your name at the top (which is reasonable considering your frequency of posting). You have basically the same ideas as myself, although I wish at first you had qualified that teachers should be fired only after other measures had been exhausted. You also are right that there are ineffective teachers and that something absolutely must be done about it.

I'm still here, but posting as unregistered. (Which means that I now get blamed for every other post in this forum. Heh.)

The thing that bothered me the most in this thread was the circling of the wagons around bad teachers. Some even deny such teachers exist. Others feel that we should do all we can to prevent hurting their feelings. I care far more about the future of their students than their feelings. After all, these teachers have had a professional career for at least the last seven years. The students, if not taught well, will probably never have a professional career.

An uncaring, ineffective teacher hurts all of us. We shouldn't protect those teachers. Instead, we should treat them like a unionized carpenter treats a bad carpenter -- with derision. Naturally, we should urge them to accept training, but ultimately it comes down to their own desires.

Unregistered

12-05-2005, 09:34 PM

Like "Naive" I read over this fascinating discussion and agree with most of what has been said on the last few posts. Deal with ineffective teachers the same way we deal with ineffective students: educate them.
I confess I'm cruising here from Junior High. Lisa seems to have a lot of bad teachers at her school, or at least that's her impression. We hardly ever have that problem here because the kids are so tough on teachers that the ones who just want to cruise get crucified instead. I think the higher you go in this profession (grade-wise) the easier it is to hide. Like "naive" I sure had my share of atrocious profs, almost all hiding in the education dept.
Also, some upwardly mobile schools with students from highly literate and financed homes offer, in my opinion, a cushy job, sort of like college prof. as compared to teaching in the sites abandoned by society, where just showing up is an act of courage above and beyond.
So I guess, what I'm concluding is, if you hate being surrounded by lazy teachers who are cruising through the day, come on over to Junior High on the wrong side of the tracks, where you have to pull a rabbit out of a hat every few minutes to keep the little darlings on track. If we had a teacher who didn't care about this poor kids and could stand the abuse, believe me, we wouldn't wait for an administrator (talk about a bunch of lazy desk fillers) to do something. We teachers would run a calloused person like that out of town on a rail.
So,come on over Lisa, we've got plenty of problems, but no bad teachers, just heroes.

Unregistered

12-06-2005, 02:09 AM

So I guess, what I'm concluding is, if you hate being surrounded by lazy teachers who are cruising through the day, come on over to Junior High on the wrong side of the tracks, where you have to pull a rabbit out of a hat every few minutes to keep the little darlings on track.

But there is more to teaching than keeping things under control. Academic proficiency is a must, but the teachers I am singling out turn out low score after low score.

And there are bad teachers at nearly every school, no matter the grade level or zip code.

Unregistered

12-06-2005, 09:24 PM

And there are bad teachers at nearly every school, no matter the grade level or zip code.

Really? Nearly every school? That's rather a broad brush you have there.

I thought you were the person who didn't like generalizations. I guess the earlier discussion about the distinction between bad people and people who are not meeting standards fell on deaf ears afterall. Just when I thought Big Daddy and Mildred had made some headway against that wall of negativity.

We haven't got any bad teachers at our school. We are blessed with a group of dedicated professionals who work hard every day on behalf of the students. Our test scores go up every year and more importantly, our students, for the most part, become life long learners. However, I'm willing to admit that if you worked here you'd likely find plenty of people to complain about.

Unregistered

12-06-2005, 10:19 PM

Really? Nearly every school? That's rather a broad brush you have there. I thought you were the person who didn't like generalizations.

I didn't say "every school." I said, "nearly every school."

I stand behind my opinion.

I guess the earlier discussion about the distinction between bad people and people who are not meeting standards fell on deaf ears afterall. Just when I thought Big Daddy and Mildred had made some headway against that wall of negativity.

Thinking happy thoughts isn't going to solve our problems. If a teacher's students are struggling year after year, calling that teacher a "good teacher" is not going to increase the students' proficiency. And all it does is let the teacher off the hook.

Again, you seem so damned concerned about the teachers' feelings. What about the students?

I hear talk all the time about good teachers. Well, if there are good teachers, then why wouldn't there be bad teachers? (No one has yet been able to answer that question.)

Unregistered

12-06-2005, 10:56 PM

You are not reading carefully. I quoted you as saying "nearly" which is still an assumptive position indicating perhaps a need to paint the universe with subjective experience.

"Good teachers" vs. "bad teachers" is your terminology,what Piaget would call a post-adolescent view of morality. The extended, above discussion from a number of patient contributers was meant to steer you toward a more mature, contractual view of human relationships. Evidently, beyond your ken. Apparantly you are an intelligent being who has been frozen by rage into a childish emotionality.

Based on earlier discussion, I expect you will now discount this by either denigrating my background or attacking an isolated term. Anything to avoid considering a wider perspective. Clearly, you feel threatened by attempts to show you a response devoid of rage. As Mildred suggested, you are painting yourself into a pretty dangerous corner.

Unregistered

12-07-2005, 11:48 PM

You are not reading carefully. I quoted you as saying "nearly" which is still an assumptive position indicating perhaps a need to paint the universe with subjective experience.

No, it is an opinion, just as if someone had said "... our students, for the most part, become life long learners."

"Good teachers" vs. "bad teachers" is your terminology,what Piaget would call a post-adolescent view of morality. The extended, above discussion from a number of patient contributers was meant to steer you toward a more mature, contractual view of human relationships. Evidently, beyond your ken. Apparantly you are an intelligent being who has been frozen by rage into a childish emotionality.

Hmmm... I don't recall insulting you. So why should you insult me?

Based on earlier discussion, I expect you will now discount this by either denigrating my background or attacking an isolated term. Anything to avoid considering a wider perspective. Clearly, you feel threatened by attempts to show you a response devoid of rage. As Mildred suggested, you are painting yourself into a pretty dangerous corner.

Since I am the one supposedly in a rage, then why are you the one resorting to insults. If anything, I am far better at avoiding the ad hominem attacks than my counterparts. Look at your post. Not once did you even bother to try and discuss the issue; your post is nothing more than one personal slight after another. Your first post on 12/6 has some too. You really should look over your comments and note all the personal attacks.

Marissa Abbott

12-10-2005, 12:41 PM

While teachers do not make as much money as some in other professions, there are so many benefits to being a teacher. Namely, making a difference in the lives of young people. I can't count how many students I have seen turn around simply because someone took the time to care about them. I think if you want to make a lot of money, maybe teaching is not the right thing for you. But, if you want to make a difference, teaching is the right thing for you :)

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote=Unregistered}Apparantly you are an intelligent being who has been frozen by rage into a childish emotionality

[QUOTE=Unregistered] Hmmm... I don't recall insulting you. So why should you insult me?

Sorry, but I don't see the insult. You were referred to as an intelligent being who is angry. I know you are not denying you are intelligent. Are you denying that you are angry? I hope you are not, because your posts fairly ooze rage. My motives for pointing out this consistently angry language are not to insult and if you take them as such, well perhaps you are proving my point?

Dr. Chen

12-10-2005, 01:30 PM

I think if you want to make a lot of money, maybe teaching is not the right thing for you. But, if you want to make a difference, teaching is the right thing for you :)

They don't have to be mutually exclusive, you know? A society that honors teaching and loves children is not a bad thing to work for. I do agree with you that those who choose this profession can expect high idealistic rewards and low monetary ones. I think we all pray for a society that rewards the idealistic rather than the merely crafty.

Teaching in the U.S. began as a profession for single women and, later, for women returning to the workplace. Thus, the low salaries as oppossed to say college professor, a male dominated position for the sons of the priviledged. Many teachers who enjoy comfortable lifestyles because of their bedmate's income pat themselves on the back because they are able to choose a job without regard to monetary compensation. These inequities tend to muddy the water in these discussions, which is unfair to working class people who are called to teach but also have financial needs. One who tries to support a family on the sole income of a teacher is living an unfairly meager life. Teachers and others need to consider this in these discussions. If you are blessed with economic security outside of your teacher pay, feel free to contribute your check to educational charities.

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 01:40 PM

Teaching in the U.S. began as a profession for single women and, later, for women returning to the workplace. Thus, the low salaries as oppossed to say college professor, a male dominated position for the sons of the priviledged.

Professors have oodles more education than the average teacher and also publish scholarly research. I don't think you can compare the two.

And you haven't checked the wages of the average professor lately. Sure, I made more money as an assistant professor than as a school teacher, but it was close. (And I was far busier as an assistant professor.)

These inequities tend to muddy the water in these discussions, which is unfair to working class people who are called to teach but also have financial needs. One who tries to support a family on the sole income of a teacher is living an unfairly meager life.

No one is called to teach. We CHOOSE to teach. We know the wages beforehand, so we just need to decide whether we choose to accept the job. There is nothing inherently unfair about it.

Now, would I like more money? Who wouldn't?

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 01:46 PM

You were referred to as an intelligent being who is angry

Anyone that doesn't see the insult behind the following passage is legally blind.

The extended, above discussion from a number of patient contributers was meant to steer you toward a more mature, contractual view of human relationships. Evidently, beyond your ken

At the minimum, you have to admit that your posts have been purely ad hominem. What difference does it make if I am sad, happy, or angry? Why do you focus on the poster rather than her message?

These blatant personal attacks are a sign of weak argumentation; in fact, they constitute a fallacy. So why do you use them? Of what significance does my frame of mind have anything to do with whether I am right or wrong?

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 04:58 PM

Dr. Chen

12-10-2005, 05:20 PM

tom tuttle, that last post was a bit harsh; almost cruel. If, as you suggest, the angry poster needs therapy, using that suggestion as a barb is a heartless gesture. Earlier posters you referred to might include me, and if it does, you should know that I have stated that kindness and understanding are the balms that create healing. Therapy is an important tool to help all of deal with the emotional challenges of the modern world. Recommending its use should always be done by intimates and out of deep concern. Sarcastically referring someone who is obviously in pain to therapy is thoughtless.

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 05:38 PM

The consistent blaming on "bad teachers" and "disrespectful students" is not a "message" it is a cry for help. You continuously publish your negative feelings about the profession, other teachers, and children and then cry foul(whining in Latin is still pitiful) at those who try to point toward a more positive viewpoint.

Insulting others is not "pointing towards a more positive viewpoint." Rather, it is just plain defensiveness. To say that "the problem must be the kids, or the parents, or the administrators... it can't be us" is tantamount to passing the buck. We should accept the responsibilty for the learning that takes place in our classrooms, and if that makes me a negative person so be it.

A number of poster have edged around the suggestion that you seek help outside of this forum. You look upon these gentle attempts to help as an attack. So, seeing as there's no pleasing you, I'll just come out and say it: go find a competent therapist and spare the rest of us the agony of your existence.

Show me one quote that I have posted that demonstrates an inability to examine an issue outside the realm of rational emotion. Go for it.

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 05:43 PM

Sarcastically referring someone who is obviously in pain...

What a cheap shot.

The fallacies that are used as substitutes for reasoned argumentation are an embarrassment to this profession.

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 07:58 PM

We will pray for you in your pain.

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 08:27 PM

One who tries to support a family on the sole income of a teacher is living an unfairly meager life. Teachers and others need to consider this in these discussions. If you are blessed with economic security outside of your teacher pay, feel free to contribute your check to educational charities.[/QUOTE]

Dr. Chen,

Interesting. You make assumptions. Do you have any idea how I live? Am I am single or married? I am not married. I do support myself. I do not live high off of the hog. However, I do make more money than most teachers because I have taken on A LOT of additional responsibilities outside of my classroom. I work my butt of so that I can make it by from pay check to pay check. Oh, and if I did make enough money to donate to something, education would be my first choice. Thanks for asking :)

Dr. Chen

12-10-2005, 08:43 PM

Was that last post from Marissa Abbot, because that is who i was responding to. Furthermore, my comments were directed to teachers in general, certainly not to Ms. Abbot in particular, who, clearly I neither know nor wish to judge, and certainly not to the Unregistered person who seems to take everything written here as a personal attack.

Unregistered

12-10-2005, 08:56 PM

One who tries to support a family on the sole income of a teacher is living an unfairly meager life.

How can it be unfair if the person chose her profession under her own free will?

If teaching doesn't pay enough, don't teach.

LeticiaL.

12-10-2005, 11:08 PM

To # 165, I think, hope, we're talking about two different things here. Yes, we should all be happy with our chosen lot but that does not preclude realizing that our profession would be much improved were we given more respect. My friend is a long shoreman. He makes four times what I do for a job, that according to his description requires no special skills and is very easy. Why do longshoremen demand so much more respect. To quote my friend,
"We DEMAND respect." Dr. C's earlier point is that we are where we are because of a history of teachers allowing their profession to be seen as a pastime for unmarried women and bored housewives, sort of babysitting. The platitudes about working for love aside, teachers will command better pay when and if we demand our due. We need to stop with the self loathing justifications for the mistreatment that have been well represented here. "You knew what you were getting into.." "You should choose another job if you want money" ect. These smack of the bad advice women give each other about submitting to abuse.

I left a $150,000.00 a year job to teach and would do it again tomorrow, but that doesn't stop me from doing everything possible to make teaching a respected profession.

Unregistered

12-11-2005, 01:47 AM

My friend is a long shoreman. He makes four times what I do for a job, that according to his description requires no special skills and is very easy. Why do longshoremen demand so much more respect.

Maybe the question should be why longshoremen are so ridiculously overpaid. Not sure.

We need to stop with the self loathing justifications for the mistreatment that have been well represented here. "You knew what you were getting into.." "You should choose another job if you want money" ect. These smack of the bad advice women give each other about submitting to abuse.

To equate a teacher's salary to domestic abuse -- which are a result of irrational emotional forces -- is bizarre.

Think about it. You knew the pay was low. Why did you choose to teach? Surely there must be some reason for your choice.

We all want to be paid more. But to suggest that we are victims of misfortune because we "happened" to wind up in the teaching profession is disingenuous, and makes us sound as if we are totally unable to make sound career decisions on our own.

Unregistered

12-11-2005, 10:18 AM

Think about it. You knew the pay was low. Why did you choose to teach? Surely there must be some reason for your choice.

Well, I think posters 165-167 are really on the same page, but saying things a little differently. The bottom line is that those who go into the teaching profession are there because they feel that they have something to offer the students who need to grow into capable adults, and if everyone bore the attitude, of "I'm not going to go into that profession because it pays too little" then there would be no teachers to teach. Hmmm....
(look at the records of teaching strikes because of too little pay -- never really ended with the kind of results that really made an impact of change on teaching salaries... so even if all the teachers of the world would unite under the banner of we're not going back into the profession unless we get better pay, the only thing that would result would be a bunch of kids with nowhere to go... and the end of this whole thing spells trouble.)

We all want to be paid more. But to suggest that we are victims of misfortune because we "happened" to wind up in the teaching profession is disingenuous, and makes us sound as if we are totally unable to make sound career decisions on our own. no one "happens" to end up in the teaching proffession (if someone does I suggest they quickly find a way to "happen" to get out of that position) But the truth is that a lot of people don't value education as they should, and would eagerly spend more money on luxury vacation trips (only $6,000 per person (does not include airfare...) for all these wonderful amneties...subject to taxes, etc.) then to put even half that amount of money into some education fund to raise a teacher's salary. We should not kid ourselves by telling those that choose to teach to leave their carreers for a better paying job.... someone has to be left to teach and whoever that someone may be is worthy of an equal salary to the longshore man (if not more)

LeticiaL.

12-11-2005, 10:35 AM

To equate a teacher's salary to domestic abuse -- which are a result of irrational emotional forces -- is bizarre.
.

You mistate the comparison in a way which is, of course, "bizarre". I did not equate salary to abuse. I compare the need to make excuses for the low pay with making excuses for abusive behavior. Even at that, it is a comparison, not meant to be stretched to its utmost, but simply to make one think of the situation from a different angle. When Burns said "My love is like a red, red rose." he was not suggesting to put a dozen of her in a vase.

Now, back to the comparison. "You chose that man as your husband" sounds a bit like "You knew what the job paid when you took it", no? And "You chose to teach for the good feelings, not for the money," sounds too much like "Ignore the occassional beatings, focus on the love" for my taste.

We can love teaching while realistically admitting that society undervalues our profession. Making excuses for the undervaluing adds to the problem. Worse yet are the teachers who enjoy economic security becuase of circumstances of birth or marriage who become poster children for the apologists for lowering teacher pay and benefits.

To the very wise individual who posted last, I appreciate your level headed analysis of the conversation, but want to bring up one issue. No teacher strike has ever been forceful or united to the degree that the Longshoremen demanded respect. If we ever got together 100% and shouted instead of whimpered, I doubt the children would be out of school for very long and thing would change dramatically for the better. Course we'll probably never find out whether I'm right about that. Too many teachers would use some of the above excuses to break the line.

Unregistered

12-11-2005, 05:00 PM

You mistate the comparison in a way which is, of course, "bizarre". I did not equate salary to abuse. I compare the need to make excuses for the low pay with making excuses for abusive behavior. Even at that, it is a comparison, not meant to be stretched to its utmost, but simply to make one think of the situation from a different angle. When Burns said "My love is like a red, red rose." he was not suggesting to put a dozen of her in a vase.

Burns was using emotionally charged feelings we have about flowers to make a point about love. Such artistic license has a place in poetry and literature, but not in academic discussions (where it becomes a fallacy).

Now, back to the comparison. "You chose that man as your husband" sounds a bit like "You knew what the job paid when you took it", no?

No, not at all. Again, it is far more understandable to be caught in an abusive relationship because love is not always rational nor was it ever supposed to be.

Furthermore, if a teacher quits I highly doubt any of her colleagues are going to hunt her down and beat the c**p out of her, a real fear for many abused women.

I think your equating the two is a slap in the face for abused women and shows you have little understanding of their perceived need to stay in the relationship. Getting married is not like getting a job. Being beaten every night is not like working for low wages. Leaving a husband is not like quitting a job. The two situations are incomparable.

And "You chose to teach for the good feelings, not for the money," sounds too much like "Ignore the occassional beatings, focus on the love" for my taste.

I have not heard many people offer this kind of advice. In fact, family members and friends typically urge women to leave such relationships. It is usually the women themselves who feel the need to stay in it, and for understandable (albeit irrational) reasons.

So let me ask: If the pay was so low, why did you decide to become a teacher?

We can love teaching while realistically admitting that society undervalues our profession. Making excuses for the undervaluing adds to the problem.

Again, we all think we should be paid more. I am not arguing against that. However, I am suggesting it is wrong for us to claim ourselves as victims when we knowingly accepted the circumstances we are in.

So I am not suggesting teachers refrain from demanding more money. They can make plenty of good arguments for increase pay beyond the "woe is me, I am a victim" mentality. No one respects someone who feels sorry for herself.

To the very wise individual who posted last, I appreciate your level headed analysis of the conversation, but want to bring up one issue. No teacher strike has ever been forceful or united to the degree that the Longshoremen demanded respect. If we ever got together 100% and shouted instead of whimpered, I doubt the children would be out of school for very long and thing would change dramatically for the better.

It depends on how persuasive you are. Shouting that you are a victim that is caught in an abusive profession and doesn't know how to get out of it isn't going to win any converts. That would be downright pathetic.

Unregistered

12-11-2005, 10:09 PM

How does one reply to one who obviously hasn't read or understood the post they're commenting on?

BigDaddyTeacher

12-12-2005, 12:35 AM

Now, back to the comparison... sounds a bit like "You knew what the job paid when you took it"

(slightly out of context)
sounds more like 'You knew the job was dangerous when you took it" (insert loud clucking noise here - and if you get this joke, you are, like me, as old as dirt:D )

As to wondering how to reply to the post when you're not sure what's going on? Just jump on in and give your two cents worth. Or, spend a day or so going back to #1 and trying to follow the bouncing thread!

Naive Teacher-to-Be

12-12-2005, 01:42 AM

Please let me try to clear up the biggest issue in this forum: the meaning of 'bad.' Using Google's define function (i.e. define:bad), I located a long list of definitions, two of which are causing some confusiom:

1. having undesirable or negative qualities; "a bad report card"; "his sloppy appearance made a bad impression"; "a bad little boy"; "clothes in bad shape"; "a bad cut"; "bad luck"; "the news was very bad"; "the reviews were bad"; "the pay is bad"; "it was a bad light for reading"; "the movie was a bad choice"

2. characterized by wickedness or immorality; "led a very bad life"

I think those are the two that are mainly causing the trouble (bad teacher vs. bad person). Now, I think I can speak for Lisa (now under 'Unregistered') when I say that she is referring to definition #1 as shown above. For everyone working on definition #2 or something similar, STOP! Don't post about it again, as it has become MOOT! (hehehe...I like that word).

Now, Lisa, some time long ago, posed this question (or similar): "Do 'bad' teachers exist?" I will now take it upon myself to rephrase and answer this question in a manner that is pretty absolute in nature, simply by plugging in the result of equation #1 (I'm a math teacher-to-be hehe).

Question: Do teachers with undesirable or negative qualities exist?

I think we can all resoundingly agree "YES!" In fact, I could take you through a tour of my old high school and I'm sure there are a few still around. If you want to count professors in this as well, come down to Penn State blindfoldeded and you'll run into several dozen (I only did my undergraduate there...Bloomsburg University (PA) has a fantastic education department aside from a few professors meeting definition #1 criteria). Nevertheless, this issue is settled! As a reasonably level-headed individual, I have decreed (<--just jokes) that you should ignore all posts in reference and just put NAST (Naive Already Settled That) as the first line in your post and we're "All Good."

Also, just to tie up a few loose ends, I'm sure that Lisa (aka 'Unregistered') will continue to refer to definition #1 teachers as 'bad' teachers. THIS IS FINE! Really, it is! We all now agree (per NAST) that we are talking about teachers meeting definition #1 criteria. Should Lisa now stop calling these teachers 'bad'? No, since definition #1 is a fully-functional definition of 'bad' (Plus it's so much more work typing "teachers having undesirable or negative qualities"). You're teachers! Save your time for developing interesting and fun lesson plans and not typing out long, lengthy sentences that just qualify what the definition already says.

I apologize for belaboring this point, but I think we finally have everything settled and no person need to refer back to the issue (Again, per NAST). Now, let's have ourselves some clear, intellectual debate! This is what education is all about, ain't it? (<--intentional use of 'ain't')

Naive Teacher-to-Be

Naive Teacher-to-Be

12-12-2005, 03:36 AM

@Jessica (The original poster from which this thread was 'hijacked'):

Jessica may have given up on this post, but if not, here is some information that may help her (or someone else with a similar question). First off, you must consider at what level you want to teach. There is Early Childhood (i.e. preschool), Elementary, Middle, Secondary and Special Education. Many times Middle and Secondary are combined, and it is usually possible to get a dual degree in Early Childhood/Elementary or Elementary/Special Ed (Note that I'm from PENNSYLVANIA, so what happens in your state may vary).

If you're interested in Early/Elementary/Special Ed., you can get a Bachelor's degree in one of those areas (or more if you get dual-certified...I don't know if there's a tri-major). If you're interested in Middle/Secondary, you first need to pick a field of study (math, science, english, soc. studies, phys. ed., art, music,...did I forget any?) Alternatively, you might be able to get a Bachelor's Degree in a subject area, followed by a Master's Degree in Education (This is what I am doing). The latter option has many advantages, including (slightly) higher starting salaries.

See the following website for a link to your state's Department of Education website. This should undoubtedly lead you towards that state's specific requirements.

http://www.alleducationschools.com/faqs/statedepartment.php

In almost any state (maybe all states?), you need to pass two or more PRAXIS exams. The passing score is determined by the individual state. The first exam is the Praxis I, which includes three tests: Math, Reading and Writing. The second will either be a test in your level of education (Early, Elementary or Special) or in your subject matter (called a 'content' exam). Other states may require other exams, but this is from my experience.

In addition, I would assume that all states require child abuse and criminal clearances, which need to be re-submitted each year. So, if you've committed a serious crime (even DUI in many instances) or if you've ever abused children (No-Brainer), you may wish to consider a different occupation.

There are possibly other requirements which undoubtedly vary by state, but here are the rest of mine (pretty much): Liability insurance (satisfied through membership in PSEA), an annual or bi-annual Tuberculosis test and maybe a physical (I had to get one for school). I don't know if I'm missing any, but those are the major ones for Pennsylvania.

I hope I was helpful in answering your questions on requirements. For more information, consult GOOGLE, your state department of education or, perhaps the best way to obtain information, talk to a person from the Education Department at a local college. They eat, sleep and breathe teacher
requirements, so they're always knowledgeable (if not helpful) in this area.

Naive Teacher-to-Be

12-12-2005, 03:41 AM

Frontmatter: Hehehe...I'm on a roll tonight. It's amazing the work you can get done at 3AM. I have no finals tomorrow (i.e. Today), so I stayed up and finished all the take-home essays for my finals, plus a paper. This is, of course, in addition to the three posts I've made here tonight (phew). I hope they are of reasonable quality and/or interest to someone. Thanks for reading!

@Jessica (The original poster from which this thread was 'hijacked'):

This post is to (hopefully) help Jessica answer her original question regarding salaries. How much do teachers get paid? Well, not enough (Although noone gets paid 'enough' (look at the NBA/NFL/Jerry Seinfeld/etc.). The bottom line is that TEACHERS ARE NOT PAID WELL. If you can't accept this, think I'm joking or are trying to mentally block this out, don't even consider becoming a teacher. If you know-absolutely-that this is a very small part of why you want to teach, then you may be ready to become a teacher. If you can't handle this fact, please don't even consider it; you'll end up incredibly unhappy (from what I see & hear...I've never actually taught lol). With this said, let's get on to some real information.

Teachers salaries aren't great, but if you work hard (good grades, extracurriculars showing you care about children/leadership/citizenry) and are willing to relocate, you can definitely find a job that will be able to fulfill your needs and quite a few of your wants as well. If you want to stay exactly where you're at, or if you're set on a very fixed location, you'll probably end up getting paid poorly (unless you live near an atypical school district).

Another key factor is your subject/level of choice. My girlfriend is dual Elementary/Special Education, and it's apparent that she is wanted much more for her Special Education than her Elementary (but we've only looked at east coast schools, primarily Northeast in PA/NY/MD/etc.) Here is a (SUBJECTIVE) partial ranking of what subjects/levels are most sought out for based on my experience (including job searching, research, talking with professors and other teachers-in-training).

1. Math (That's me...YAY...People throw jobs at me!)
2. Special Education (That's my girlfriend! No problems here)
3. Science (Especially PHYSICS...Biology is in less demand, but still good)

Spending a lot of time with Secondary teachers-in-training, I can tell you that (for PA) there are an overabundance of English and Social Studies teachers-in-training. I'm not entirely sure about Elementary, but it seems to be in higher demand than English & Social Studies (SUBJECTIVE).

Now, let's go on to finding salary information. If you have a particular school district in mind, you can look up their website and see if they have a "salary schedule." It's about a 50/50 chance they will (maybe a little less), although you could probably call them (pretend to be a taxpayer) and ask. Keep in mind that, for teachers, it is often seen as distasteful (from what I hear) to discuss salary information before anything else (I like to look for diversity first...good way to find a school with more open-minded students/parents (SUBJECTIVE)). In addition, your local newspaper might publish teacher salaries in the newspaper each year (Did I mention teachers have to deal with much public distrust?) If all else fails, use google to search for "salary schedule Pennsylvania" or something similar. Google has been an invaluable source of information for my teaching career (AND LIFE!).

So you know how to find it, but you're looking for information that is a little bit more specific. Well, then, let me tell you of my experience (ALL SUBJECTIVE mixed with fact). First, I'm talking Pennsylvania money. There are variations among cities, states and regions, depending on your local/regional economy. I've heard of a school district that starts teachers off with $17,500, although this is pretty atypical from what I've seen/heard. Most of the places I've looked at are $30,000+ starting out, which is pretty reasonable from my point of view (remember: teachers aren't paid well). Some of the school districts that I've been most interested in (for other reasons) are starting at $35K-40K (including my top choice: Harrisburg, and my next two: Philadelphia and Binghamton...note that these are medium/bigger cities, which seem to pay more (SUBJECTIVE)).

What are some factors that influence how much you'll get paid? First, let me note that pretty much all teachers in (most?) school districts get paid the same amount, given the number of years that they have taught. However, getting a Master's/Doctorate Degree increases your pay several thousands, as well as having a certain amount of additional college credits. Some (many?) school districts offer additional income if you are NBPTS (National Board Professional Teaching Standards) certified. This requires several years of teaching as well as workshops, video-taping your lessons or having them observed, as well as submitting a portfolio of your teaching work (Discipline Plan, Lesson/Unit Plans, Teaching Philosophy, etc. etc.). I think it is safe to say (although still SUBJECTIVE) that NBPTS certified teachers really are worth many thousands of dollars, since they are thoroughly and appropriately assessed (But that's just a side-note).

Other factors include what (if any) additional services you provide the school (Advisors, Coaches, etc.). These are often much harder work than you will be compensated for, but it is additional income. Also, you get your summers off, so you can find additional employment for that time.

Naive Teacher-to-Be

12-12-2005, 03:42 AM

Front(middle?)matter: Yay! My first post that has been so long that I had to split it up. This is great (or horrible) news for you!

Now, let's talk benefits. This is the part I know the least about, so allow me to give my (SUBJECTIVE) impressions based almost solely on talks with educators/peers/others. If there's one thing I'm fairly certain of, it's that teachers have great benefits. Our salaries aren't very impressive, but our benefits packages usually clean house (although this is beginning to change, it seems). Many times teachers have full health care coverage, with medical/dental/eye/etc., although it seems that many school districts are requiring teachers to start chipping in money to pay for healthcare (SUBJECTIVELY speaking, I've heard it's much better than it works in industry).

Other benefits include tenure (a hot subject of debate, especially in this thread), life insurance, investment programs, retirement benefits and (cost-free?) professional development. Not bad, methinks. Oh, did I mention summers and holidays off?

And, of course, the most important benefit: THE ABILITY TO AFFECT MEANINGFUL AND LASTING CHANGE TO YOUNG PEOPLE! That's right. You remember your favorite teacher? If you're caring and supportive, there could be hundreds of students remembering you FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. In their Composition 101 course in college, when they're asked to write about the most influential person in their lives, IT COULD BE YOU! It's not a guarantee, but the more you put into teaching, the more (usually) you are able to influence their lives. In what ways will you affect them? Assuming that it is a positive effect, you can help them become responsible citizens who think critically and are happy and successfully in their careers and lives. In fact, they may even model themselves after you (which would answer the question "What made you want to major in Math, then teach it, Naive Teacher-to-Be?" - my 9th & 11th grade Geometry & Trig Teacher!)

To sum everything up, teachers don't get paid what they're worth (SUBJECTIVE, but I'm sure all teachers would agree), but if you aren't tied down and work hard, you can find a job that will pay for your expenses with a little bit of pocket change. Most importantly, it will give you a chance to influence society in a relevant and extremely meaningful way. Will you have enough for a Mercedes? Not likely (unless you work for a school district that pays EXTREMELY well, but you won't be able to live there since the property values/taxes will be way too high). Will you have a 42" Plasma TV? Only if you're thrifty with everything else and scrimp and save for awhile. Will you be able to have 12 kids and live comfortably? I highly doubt it. Should you be able to do all these things? Well, maybe.

I hope that some (All?) of this has helped Jessica or anyone else with similar questions. I have tried to limit or point out my particularly subjective statements, but beware that all are subjective and are strictly a matter of MY OPINION and EXPERIENCE, which is flawed and limited at best. If anything I've said has offended anyone in any way (delicate subject for many), it is probably because you were ready to be offended to begin with; I only gave you a specific target.

Naive Teacher-to-Be

be Just

12-17-2005, 10:35 AM

Please let me try to clear up the biggest issue in this forum: the meaning of 'bad.' Using Google's define function (i.e. define:bad), I located a long list of definitions, two of which are causing some confusiom:

You can be sure when someone has to post a dictionary definiton half way through a discussion that you're dealing with a "loaded" term. Naive, you sure made the valiant effort here. In sheer legnth alone, you gave us all pause. You ought to think about a book on this subject (no sarcasm intended you are a thoughtful person with much to say).

My point is that you certainly would never tell a student, "you are a bad student." You wouldn't do that, not because of what Google says about the definition of "bad" but because you know that the message you would be sending the child would be that you are negating her worth as a person. Instead, you would point out the consequences of a good person who behaves badly.

Likewise, coming onto a teacher forum and talking about "bad teachers" is clearly either an attempt to insult. This started out as a discussion on teacher salary, but like so many posts on this forum, got highjacked by someone who is just spoiling for a fight.

My reccomendation is that next time you see someone insulting teachers on this or other sites, you refuse to acknowledge them and report the activity to the site monitor. If enough people complain, the person will either modify the bad behavior or stop annoying those with something genuine to say.

Thanks again, Naive, for trying to put us all back on the right track here. This was and could be again, a great discussion about an important issue.

Unregistered

12-17-2005, 03:05 PM

You can be sure when someone has to post a dictionary definiton half way through a discussion that you're dealing with a "loaded" term. Naive, you sure made the valiant effort here. In sheer legnth alone, you gave us all pause. You ought to think about a book on this subject (no sarcasm intended you are a thoughtful person with much to say).

It was clear from my original post that I was using the term as a synonym for "inept." Is there any statement I have ever made that suggests otherwise? Every time I have defined the term "bad teachers" my definition has revolved around their skill and attitudes. In no way have I ever used the term as a synonym for "evil."

Those spoiling for a fight were the ones that twisted the meaning of "bad" to create a controversy where there should have been none.

My point is that you certainly would never tell a student, "you are a bad student." You wouldn't do that, not because of what Google says about the definition of "bad" but because you know that the message you would be sending the child would be that you are negating her worth as a person. Instead, you would point out the consequences of a good person who behaves badly.

I have never told anyone in here that they were a bad teacher. But that doesn't mean there is no such thing.

So let me ask you a simple question: Do you think inept teachers exist?

Likewise, coming onto a teacher forum and talking about "bad teachers" is clearly either an attempt to insult.

Only if you consider yourself in that category. If someone came in here and mentioned something about bad or inept teachers, I certainly wouldn't feel insulted. Why should I? Why should you?

I think you are confusing a statement like "bad teacher" with "teachers are bad." The first comments only on the few (?) teachers who are clearly inept at teaching skill and show little interest in improving. The latter is a general statement about the entire teaching profession. I would never state the latter, nor have I ever. And it is disingenous of you to twist my words to make it appear that I have.

be Just

12-17-2005, 07:41 PM

Well, I'm happy you have begun to reconsider your terms. Calling someone a bad anything can hardly be the beginnings of anything but useless wrangling.

In answer to your question: certainly there are teachers who do not teach as effectively as I would wish. Truth be told, I am one of them myself. i'd be suspicious of any teacher who believed themselves incapable of improvement. Not to mince words because I think I know what you are looking for here, I have never met a teacher who came to work to harm children. If I had, and if I were convinced we were dealing with an incorigible attacker of children I would do all in my power to dispose of such an undesirable personality.

I would hesitate to assign any perjorative to a fellow professional simply because she did not meet my standards of profesionalism. Our craft is far too broad in definition for any one teacher to sit in judgement upon another for anything less the the grossest malfeacance. For me, or you, to approach a fellow teacher with such a judgement would not only indicate an arrogance that I would not covet but would certainly spoil whatever future opportunities that might arise to postively influence through constructive dialogue.

Unregistered

12-17-2005, 08:11 PM

Well, I'm happy you have begun to reconsider your terms. Calling someone a bad anything can hardly be the beginnings of anything but useless wrangling.

Well, the term inept is too weak, in my opinion. A person can be inept, but trying to become better. What would you call someone who is inept, knows he is inept, and has no interest in becoming better? I'll let you choose the word.

In answer to your question: certainly there are teachers who do not teach as effectively as I would wish. Truth be told, I am one of them myself. i'd be suspicious of any teacher who believed themselves incapable of improvement. Not to mince words because I think I know what you are looking for here, I have never met a teacher who came to work to harm children. If I had, and if I were convinced we were dealing with an incorigible attacker of children I would do all in my power to dispose of such an undesirable personality.

Sheez! No one said anything about teachers intending to do harm. Can we stay on track?

I would hesitate to assign any perjorative to a fellow professional simply because she did not meet my standards of profesionalism.

These teachers don't meet the standards of professionalism, period. When you have a teacher whose class is completely out of control year after year, he is a not a professional by anyone's definition. And those are the teachers I am talking about.

Our craft is far too broad in definition for any one teacher to sit in judgement upon another for anything less the the grossest malfeacance.

Do you think there are inept teachers? Yes or no? (I knew you wouldn't answer the question.)

What would YOU call a teacher that employs ineffective teaching practices and has admitted he has no interest in improving?

For me, or you, to approach a fellow teacher with such a judgement would not only indicate an arrogance that I would not covet but would certainly spoil whatever future opportunities that might arise to postively influence through constructive dialogue.

One of the teachers I am talking about is a twelve-year veteran that simply refuses to participate in any training. In fact, he led the fight to prevent the rest of the teachers from attending the last round of training. You can sweet talk that teacher all day long if getting along is truly your aim.

Unregistered

12-17-2005, 08:11 PM

There sure have been a bunch of posts advising tolerance and understanding on this forum lately. Did we get invaded by a bunch of do-gooders or what? Is it 'cuz it's "the seasonal occasion that must not be named?" Since when did teachers become such an understanding lot? Have you hung out in the teacher's lounge lately? A more savage group of back biters and judgers of fellow man don't exist this side of the White House. Wherever you nice people came from, please go back there and leave this forum to us real men, right Lisa?

Be Just

12-17-2005, 08:20 PM

"Do you think there are inept teachers? Yes or no? (I knew you wouldn't answer the question.)

What would YOU call a teacher that employs ineffective teaching practices and has admitted he has no interest in improving?"

I just finished answering that question. I wouldn't dare to call another professional "an inept teacher" is what I said in so many words. I said there were teachers who needed improvement, but that includes me. I think I was pretty clear.

I would call "a teacher that employs ineffective teaching practices" a teacher, because no one is perfect in that regard and let "he who is blameless cast the first stone."

The phrase "has no interest in improving" is an entirely subjective judgement that you have no right to make. If a teacher told you that, it is probably because you had made him angry,which is, I think understandable if you approached him with a tenth of the recrimination with which your posts are dripping.

Unregistered

12-18-2005, 01:26 PM

I wouldn't dare to call another professional "an inept teacher" is what I said in so many words. I said there were teachers who needed improvement, but that includes me. I think I was pretty clear.

And there are no differences from one teacher to the next? We are all lumped in the same category? Or do you realize there are inept teachers and simply don't want to acknowledge that fact for the sake of political correctness?

I thought we were supposed to be a professional discipline, but seem to have no standards of excellence whatsoever. No matter how little the students learn, we our above criticism. No matter what attitude we have towards our responsibilities, it cannot be our own fault. Read on...

The phrase "has no interest in improving" is an entirely subjective judgement that you have no right to make. If a teacher told you that, it is probably because you had made him angry,which is, I think understandable if you approached him with a tenth of the recrimination with which your posts are dripping.

And your excuse for his missing training sessions for the last five years is...? After all, if you want to continually make excuses for him why stop?

He quit using excuses years ago and has recently just admitted that he has no interest in improving. Somehow his attitude is my fault. Maybe he should have called you to get the latest excuse. Maybe you should provide this as a 1-900 service.

"I've got a problem. I slapped a student today and the principal wants me in his office. What kind of excuse can I use?"

"Lisa probably made you mad. It is her fault. You cannot be blamed for slapping a student, because you are a teacher."

Be Just

12-18-2005, 02:36 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to make you so angry. But maybe it's not me you're angry with...

Anyway, in answer to your question about wny a teacher wouldn't appear at the training days:

There is a senior teacher whom all respect at our site. She has had a number of back surgeries and cannot sit except in a special chair. When our district holds training days they usually have them in classrooms or the gym,where teachers are asked to sit for an entire day in chairs that even people with kno back problems find torture.

She takes university level courses all summer long in her subject matter. She has written several important books in her discipline. She does not attend the district meetings, and by the way neither do many of us. We have that option under our contract.

If you mean to infer that just because a person doesn't come to your party they are antisocial, that is quite a leap.

You say I am making excuses for the people you are angry with. I begin to believe you are not trying to understand the other person. That could be a symptom of uncontrolled rage.

Unregistered

12-18-2005, 05:17 PM

One small problem: The teacher at our school doesn't have a back problem.

This has to be the most bizarre excuse I have ever seen. Because a teacher at your school has a legitimate excuse (serious medical problems) for not attending a training and has performed meritorious service, our teacher therefore is excused from training????

What the ****?!?!?

And you end it off with the old "he isn't resistant, he's misunderstood" bit.

We understand him quite well. He has told us he has no interest in improving. He has told us he is resistant. What more do you want?

Be Just

12-18-2005, 06:20 PM

We understand him quite well. He has told us he has no interest in improving. He has told us he is resistant. What more do you want?

I offered the example to you as a way of saying that people are complex and often when one person (or worse, when a group of people who decide they are necessarily right because they are in agreement) passes judgement on another the whole story isn't taken into account.

What more do I want? Well, I would have to take the time to get to know this man and,you know,walk a mile in his moccasins. If, after I was sure I had the man's confidence, it turned out that he did not have a very different explanation for himself than the one you offer, I would join you in running him out of town on a rail.

Here is the main point: one teacher passing judgement on another is a very serious matter that needs very careful consideration by wholly disinterested parties. If I were angry and frustrated, I would recognize that my judgement had been impaired. I wish I could trust your judgement on this, but I sense you are not a disinterested party but an offended one. Sorry, but since all I have to go on is one obviously hurt person's perception of another teacher, I'd have to do the one thing that only a self aware person can: pause and gather more information before acting.

Unregistered

12-18-2005, 08:23 PM

Okay, so this person has been attempting to teach for 12 years, with low scores and student discipline problems to show for it. He has refused to go to training and has stated he has no interest in improving his teaching. And that isn't enough to decide whether he should be allowed to continue teaching? And in the meantime, what is going to happen to his students?

Those of you who are parents let me ask: What would happen to you on your job site if you performed like this teacher? If you told your coworkers that you had no interest in improving your performance, would they come to your defense? Should they?

You say we should walk a mile in his shoes. I teach as many courses as he does. His classes are nothing special in terms of student body makeup. Is that not "walking in his shoes?"

My response is simple: Maybe YOU should walk a mile in the shoes of his students. After all, they're the ones that are going to struggle on his account. (But then again, who gives a **** about them, right?)

Unregistered

12-18-2005, 10:46 PM

I just retired after 26 years as a civilian in defense. You can guess who my employer was. My wife runs a bookkeeping office which I help with. I can tell you in all frankness that my wife and two part time employees crank out more work that the 85 people in the dept. I worked in. We had employees who felt their entire duty was to make sure there was cake on everyone's birthday and used the rest of the day on the phone arranging socker and church events.
Nobody ever complained about another employee's lack of productivity. People gossiped about each other for all kinds of reasons, but that subject was just assumed taboo.
As a young man I once told the head of the dept. that the job I had, delivering records from one building to the other in the morning, picking them up in the evening and sleeping the rest of the day, was a waste of a job. She was amazed. She added a whole new range of duties to my job description. I was very unpopular for years after that. Some people told me: "you just took away a job. You may move on, but someone else could have used that job."
From what I can see, the laziest teacher in the world works harder than any government employee I ever met. Maybe you don't like this guy because he thinks you are a pest and doens't respect you.

Unregistered

12-18-2005, 11:46 PM

I can tell you in all frankness that my wife and two part time employees crank out more work that the 85 people in the dept. I worked in.

Why? Why not just take it easy and do very little, like you did when you worked for the government? Working to no real effect is the paradigm to which we aspire, right?

From what I can see, the laziest teacher in the world works harder than any government employee I ever met.

First of all, teachers are also government employees. Second, it isn't about how hard you work, but how effectively you work. I can work hard digging a ditch, but that isn't going to help my students any.

Unregistered

12-18-2005, 11:47 PM

One more thing: It sounds like the job you worked at when you worked for the government was relatively unimportant, which is why it didn't matter how well you did. Care to say the same about the teaching profession?

Unregistered

12-19-2005, 12:49 PM

So, you're saying teaching 12 year olds how to do long division is more important that national defense. What value system did you wake up in this morning?
You keep beating the horse that "what other profession would allow this..", somebody gives you a straight forward answer to your question, a pretty graphic one, and that's your reply? You are not making logical arguments anymore, you're just being stubborn and refusing to even consider any one...

Oh yeah, it's Lisa...

Unregistered

12-19-2005, 09:36 PM

You admitted the job you did was unimportant. Read the following:

As a young man I once told the head of the dept. that the job I had, delivering records from one building to the other in the morning, picking them up in the evening and sleeping the rest of the day, was a waste of a job.

I wish you would make up your mind. Either the job YOU did was important, or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways.

Unregistered

12-19-2005, 10:49 PM

You don't get it?

The guy says he worked for the defense dept. You know, the military? Of course defense is important. It's also widely known to be a place where there is plenty of outrageous waste. The employees treat it like its a welfare system. You are going on about how no other place would allow someone to keep their job without some accountability. A guy writes in to give you a pretty good example of a place where people get paid for doing nothing. The job is important. The people who take advantage of the system are wasting the tax payers money. See?
You think your little friend down the hall is the only free loader? Well look around.

Unregistered

12-20-2005, 12:03 AM

The guy says he worked for the defense dept. You know, the military?

We are specifically discussing the job HE did. The man who swept the floors probably worked for the defense industry too, but I hardly consider his job crucial to our national security.

Unregistered

12-20-2005, 09:10 AM

"Those of you who are parents let me ask: What would happen to you on your job site if you performed like this teacher? If you told your coworkers that you had no interest in improving your performance, would they come to your defense? Should they?"187 unreg

A guy writes in to give his life experience in the defense dept.

" The man who swept the floors probably worked for the defense industry too, but I hardly consider his job crucial to our national security"194unreg

Clearly, you aren't looking for answers to your questions, since you disrespect those who give you the info you claim to seek. Have you ever heard anything that didn't come out of your own mouth? You don't have to agree with the people you pretend to carry discussion on with, but you could at the very least acknowledge the comments without attacking some little detail. You would have told the Evangelist he was not credible because he wasn't wearing a tie. You know Lisa, your arrogance is at times simply astounding!

Unregistered

12-21-2005, 11:44 AM

Clearly, you aren't looking for answers to your questions, since you disrespect those who give you the info you claim to seek

He disrespected his own job. He clearly stated in his OWN POST that his job was unnecessary. Do you want me to post his statement yet again?

mildred

12-21-2005, 12:45 PM

I agree with the gentleman who worked for the federal goverment. I too worked in the defense industry before becoming a teacher. Unbelievable waste! They called it "welfare for white people" while I was there. There seemed to be a contest going on to see who could waste time the most effectively and soak up taxpayers money.
The education system, operating on far less money, is so much more efficient! Picking on teachers while all that waste is going on at the top is a waste of time.

Unregistered

12-23-2005, 03:36 AM

Finding someone else that is doing a poor job is no excuse for doing a poor job. I cannot believe we have sunk to this level.

Unregistered

12-23-2005, 01:38 PM

Unregistered

12-23-2005, 06:02 PM

Well,let's reflect. Someone (perhaps you) said that only in teaching would incompetence go unchallenged. Some people wrote in to let you know that, in fact, the whole world has this problem...

Actually, so far all we have is one example of a government employee. But teachers are government employees too. So at this point we just suggesting that since government employees can get away with half-assed efforts, and teachers are government employees, then teachers should be able to get away with half-assed efforts. This is true logically as long as we agree with the premise. I don't; maybe you do.

Unregistered

12-23-2005, 07:03 PM

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the premise that incompetence in not a trait found exclusively in education? You appeared to be saying at one time that the incompetence you have witnessed in your school would not be tolerated anywhere else. Are you expanding this to government jobs now, or not?

The discussion seems stalled on this non issue. Can't you just admit that incompetence exists and is, to varying degrees tolerated, elsewhere?

Unregistered

12-23-2005, 07:52 PM

Let's go back to my original statement:

"Those of you who are parents let me ask: What would happen to you on your job site if you performed like this teacher? If you told your coworkers that you had no interest in improving your performance, would they come to your defense? Should they?"

This is a question meant for everyone to think about and draw their own answers. Nowhere did I DEFY anyone to offer an example of their own incompetence being overlooked, but for some reason you think I did.

Of course incompetence exists everywhere. Do you really think I would state otherwise?

I simply asked parents to reflect on their own jobs. I never once said that NO ONE other than teachers could possibly get away with incompetence.

The one person who responded that he was able to admitted that his job was unimportant. I merely pointed that teaching doesn't fall in the same category.

Be Just

12-25-2005, 01:51 PM

Of course it was so much easier to deal with incompetence before Democracy. Off with their heads! Now we are forced by laws protecting the rights of individuals to treat every teacher as if he or she were an important, highly trained individual. How inconvenient! "America's shopping place" would never have become #1 business using this "treat the individual with respect" inefficiency. Through the relentless and well financed efforts of the opponents of teacher protection laws, we may soon look forward to the far more efficient day of the disposable teacher.

Unregistered

12-25-2005, 03:28 PM

Of course it was so much easier to deal with incompetence before Democracy. Off with their heads!

Oh, so those that demand accountability in teaching are being compared to the Conqueror Worm?

This is getting a might bit silly.

Now we are forced by laws protecting the rights of individuals to treat every teacher as if he or she were an important, highly trained individual. How inconvenient!

What if the teacher exhibits skills that indicate she isn't highly trained (or is unable to exhibit any of her training in real practice)? Suppose he is unwilling to listen to advice? What then?

There is no such thing as "the right to perpetual employment matter how incompetent one may be." If there is, it has managed to slip by the rest of industry (and the U.S. Constitution).

Unregistered

12-25-2005, 05:34 PM

There is no such thing as "the right to perpetual employment matter how incompetent one may be." If there is, it has managed to slip by the rest of industry (and the U.S. Constitution).

If there's no such thing, what are complaining about?

Unregistered

12-25-2005, 06:20 PM

Poor teaching and the lack of accountability.

Be Just

12-25-2005, 08:00 PM

Poor teaching and the lack of accountability.

I think it was Twain who said it's like the weather, everyone complains about it, but nobody has a solution.

Unregistered

12-26-2005, 01:25 PM

Not everyone complains about poor teaching. That is one source of controversy.

The solution to poor teaching is that these teachers must improve. I think we all agree. When this solution fails, we have two possible outcomes:

1. Teacher is left alone.

2. Teacher is replaced.

This is the second source of controversy.

I think there are solutions to the poor teaching problem, but they are very controversial. So it isn't quite like the weather analogy.

Unregistered

12-26-2005, 08:55 PM

I don't mean to be argumenative, but I don't see how either of your solutions is practical in the world we live in. 1. We can't afford to leave a teacher who is failing her students alone. I think you know that and are presenting this as a non alternative to stregthen your second solution, which is to replace teachers.

Let me tell you why I don't think your second reason is really practical. I am fortunate to live in a school district where teachers are knocking on doors to get in. In a district like this, it's no problem replacing teachers, but I work in a district 18 miles away where the teacher shortage is staggering. We can't even call in sick unless because there are so few substitutes who will work there. Forget about replacing teachers, we're dying for teachers.

The report last week stated that the "have not" districts like the one I work in spend between $2000 and $4000 per annum less per student than the affluent districts. The disparity in the two figures is because the second figure takes into account the additional expense in teaching students from failing homes and neighborhoods.

The affluent district I work in has no trouble with substandard teachers for obvious reasons. They are one of the highest scoring districts in the state and the property values climb every time the test scores do.

Now, don't get me wrong, I choose my district and I love it with all my heart. Plus, the teachers have performed miracles and we are one of the highest gaining low performing districts. But we went through some very painful times just bringing up the proportion of credentialed teachers on our staff. We feel lucky to have every teacher. There job is tougher by far and they get far less compensation. My neighbor is in Hawaii this week, a gift from one of her students. The perks are there, they don't show up on the stats, but believe me, they are there.

One more issue I'd like to run by you. I have seen quite a few teachers lose their jobs in my time, but I don't recall any of them being let go for failing to teach to demonstrable standards. There are just too many variables. The one year they tried to go after a teacher for lower test scores, it came out in the process that he'd been given all the troubled boys because of his gender and reputation. When they realized they were persecuting him because his class had lower scores than the sweet little teacher's dream class of mostly girls, the case collapsed quickly. So until somebody figures out a way to measure gains on a level playing field, and until somebody takes care of the teacher shortages in underperforming areas, I don't see your second solution coming into play very soon.

I'm open to ideas though. I can envision the ideal situation, I just can't describe it in practical terms.

Unregistered

12-27-2005, 12:44 AM

I don't mean to be argumenative, but I don't see how either of your solutions is practical in the world we live in.

Well, I stated that those were the two possible outcomes. Whether or not they are solutions is a matter of debate.

1. We can't afford to leave a teacher who is failing her students alone. I think you know that and are presenting this as a non alternative to stregthen your second solution, which is to replace teachers.

Let me tell you why I don't think your second reason is really practical. I am fortunate to live in a school district where teachers are knocking on doors to get in. In a district like this, it's no problem replacing teachers, but I work in a district 18 miles away where the teacher shortage is staggering. We can't even call in sick unless because there are so few substitutes who will work there. Forget about replacing teachers, we're dying for teachers.

I understand yor problem. But keep in mind that there are some in this forum who do not advocate the replacing of teachers even if suitable replacements are available. What do you say about that situation?

My neighbor is in Hawaii this week, a gift from one of her students. The perks are there, they don't show up on the stats, but believe me, they are there.

First of all, as a state employee I don't believe that she can accept third-party gifts. (It was illegal in the state I previously worked.) Second, how does one accept such a gift without everyone on the planet thinking it was a bribe for a good grade?

But that is not pertinent to this issue. Just curious.

One more issue I'd like to run by you. I have seen quite a few teachers lose their jobs in my time, but I don't recall any of them being let go for failing to teach to demonstrable standards. There are just too many variables. The one year they tried to go after a teacher for lower test scores, it came out in the process that he'd been given all the troubled boys because of his gender and reputation.

The rest of industry somehow manages to measure performance, so it must be possible. And sure, once in a while someone may get the ax unfairly. But that happens in every profession. Naturally we should try to minimize the chances of this occurring, but allowing substandard teachers to continue teaching because we are afraid someone might get fired unfairly is a little illogical to me.

After all, we are not talking about capital punishment here. It is possible to play it too safe, in my opinion.

Be Just

12-27-2005, 02:53 PM

I agree with most of what you said. The one thing that sticks out is your statement that education should get into line with "the rest of industry."

Do you really think of education as industry? There is a movement afoot to have the education system taken over by corporations. I guess because that model has worked so well for health care.

Unregistered

12-28-2005, 01:41 AM

Here is what I said about industry:

The rest of industry somehow manages to measure performance, so it must be possible.

I don't see how you can interpret that statement to imply that I thought schools should be run like corporations, or by corporations.

I am saying is that teaching performance can be measured. It isn't an exact science, but substandard teaching isn't that hard to identify.

Be Just

12-28-2005, 02:52 AM

Glad to hear it.

Kind of tricky wording there: "rest of industry" does sort of sound like "did you eat the rest of the pie?" "Rest" generally infers within a catagory, so I was baffled to hear a teacher in these modern times wishing to base education on the industrial model.

I had some unpleasant dealings with a school board over their consistent use of industry models in reference to education. Some have hinted that the "no child left behind" set up is rather a blatant throw back to industrial model education. Some argue that standardized testing and teaching is putting productivity before humane considerations.

Can of worms? New thread topic?

Every time I sit through a teacher discussion I wonder when we are all going to sit down at the table and find out if our foundational beliefs about educational theory are concordant. Kind of silly all the arguing about branches without even discussing the roots. Know what I mean?

Take two teachers. One believes that every child is developmentally different and should be nurtured but not compared. The other believes the only way out of the the confusion is holding every child to the same standard. Those two will argue the finer points of curricullum till the cows come home and never agree.

Now take a room full of educators trying to agree on curricullum without a clue as to one another's root pedagogical philosophy and you start to see why nothing gets done around here.

Add to the mix the emotions that get aroused when people disagree without understanding why, and you start to see the reason why I believe we all ought to start every school year with a discussion of where we are coming from.

Unregistered

12-28-2005, 04:25 AM

Kind of tricky wording there: "rest of industry" does sort of sound like "did you eat the rest of the pie?" "Rest" generally infers within a catagory, so I was baffled to hear a teacher in these modern times wishing to base education on the industrial model.

It depends on what aspects of industry are part of the discussion. I think we can sometimes learn a great deal about how to run a school by looking at how corporations run. At the same time, schools are not corporations -- we have special problems that do not apply to the business world. (The famous "defective blueberries" analogy comes to mind.)

One thing we can learn from successful companies is the "Can Do" attitude. I think we are missing that attitude in education. Instead we tend to feel sorry for ourselves and look for excuses.

We can also learn a great deal about teamwork from some companies. We need more teamwork in education, and that means teachers working with each other and with administrators.

I had some unpleasant dealings with a school board over their consistent use of industry models in reference to education. Some have hinted that the "no child left behind" set up is rather a blatant throw back to industrial model education. Some argue that standardized testing and teaching is putting productivity before humane considerations.

Well, I support the NCLB and standardized testing at the state level. I wish districts would stay out of the testing game, however. I think the resistance to state content standards is weakening every year as more and more teachers understand their value.

Every time I sit through a teacher discussion I wonder when we are all going to sit down at the table and find out if our foundational beliefs about educational theory are concordant. Kind of silly all the arguing about branches without even discussing the roots. Know what I mean?

Yes. This thread is about teachers who do not even have a foundational belief. It is one thing to be an inquiry teacher, or one who employs direct instruction. But we have teachers that are nothing more than overglorified tutors. If you ask them to describe their teaching philosophy or method, you get blank stares.

Take two teachers. One believes that every child is developmentally different and should be nurtured but not compared. The other believes the only way out of the the confusion is holding every child to the same standard.

I think you are being a little unfair to those who believe in state standards, such as myself. But I tend to agree, with one minor nit -- there is a third category: Those who believe that teaching runs secondary to simply getting through the day.

Unregistered

12-28-2005, 11:06 AM

This third category...in your opinion did they start out in the teaching profession this way? Or is this a symptom of burnout? Your answer, in my opinion, would be a great beginning to a new thread. Certainly either or both explanations deserves some attention.

I appreciate this forum because it helps me to crystalize where I stand on important issues. I have some seminal thoughts about teacher candidacy and teacher burnout both. I'm also curious to see where you lay the blame.

Unregistered

12-28-2005, 08:35 PM

I think teachers' habit of blaming others for low student proficiency is a part of it. If you blame others, then after awhile you get the feeling that you are powerless to change things. At that point bitterness and apathy set in. This is why I always blame myself when students perform poorly. By pointing the finger at myself, I have all the power to improve the situation.

Keep in mind that blaming oneself is not tantamount to becoming guilt-ridden. I don't feel guilty if my students do poorly as long as I felt I gave a solid effort. But I always think I could have done better.

A lot of posters claim I am bitter, angry, what have ya'. Actually, I enjoy my job and I go home feeling pretty good at the end of the day. On the other hand, those who have given up are the ones that struggle, in my experience. It is all about attitude.

Unregistered

12-29-2005, 06:16 PM

Unregistered

12-29-2005, 11:51 PM

Yep, it's me.

I think those that accept responsibility are genuinely more happy with their jobs, no matter what line of work they are in.

Unregistered

01-02-2006, 03:46 PM

Unregistered

01-02-2006, 05:09 PM

Never you worry about teacher salary. The time will soon come when the schools will be run as businesses are. Lessons will be scripted and para educators will run the computer rooms. As the economy becomes closer to that of the third world, labor costs will drop drastically, and people will beg for a chance to teach for minimum wage and no benefits.

Students, they call this Fallacy by Prophecy. Pretend you know the future, then use that vision to prove a point. Notice the sly use of the Slippery Slope Fallacy (that the US will become a third-world country).

What in this thread prompted your response?

Unregistered

01-02-2006, 08:27 PM

Students, they call this Fallacy by Prophecy. Pretend you know the future, then use that vision to prove a point. Notice the sly use of the Slippery Slope Fallacy (that the US will become a third-world country).

What in this thread prompted your response?

I think I read almost these exact words as a response to the scientist who told us that New Orleans would be destroyed by a hurricane.

Naive Teacher-to-Be

01-03-2006, 01:04 AM

I think the best way to deal with these conspiracy-theory wackjobs (for lack of a better word) is simply to ignore them. Don't even bother responding to them; it won't help. In fact, they are undoubtedly here to get Lisa or someone else to take their words seriously and try to talk seriously about such a ridiculous proposal. The only thing I dread (as a naive, yet slightly realistic, teacher-to-be) is that this person is probably the parent of some student who is warping their mind like theirs is obviously warped. This makes me wonder...does this site happen to have moderators? (I think it's painfully obvious that it doesn't).

Naive Teacher-to-Be

Unregistered

01-03-2006, 11:36 AM

If it's so wacko, how come it drives you so crazy? Could it be that your way of dealing with a dangerous world is to narrowly define reality? That way you can continue to enjoy grazing along without ever taking responsibility for the pasture. Let's call it Bovine Realism. Every possiblity that makes us the least bit uncomfortable we will label and dismiss. Environmentalists become "tree huggers" and we don't have to pay attention to them. Representatives for the underclass become "commies" and we can jail or assasinate them. People who observe dangerous trends and point out potential effects are "prophets" and can be stoned and driven outside the city. Marginalizing those who make you uncomfortable is a sure sign of denial. Just because you can find people who agree with you does not make you sole arbirter of reality.

Peter the Poet

01-03-2006, 11:56 AM

Naive: marked by lack of instruction, experience, perception, learning: exhibiting lack of analysis, subtlety, or depth by ready acceptance without consideration. unphilosophic.

Isn't it remarkable how people's names tell us so much about them?

Keep on keeping on prophets and poets of the world. Although many "teachers" have turned off their imagination, not all have. Dare to dream!

tom Tuttle

01-03-2006, 12:46 PM

This makes me wonder...does this site happen to have moderators? (I think it's painfully obvious that it doesn't).

Do you think by "moderators" she means the website equivilant of book burners?

Unregistered

01-03-2006, 01:45 PM

If it's so wacko, how come it drives you so crazy? Could it be that your way of dealing with a dangerous world is to narrowly define reality? That way you can continue to enjoy grazing along without ever taking responsibility for the pasture. Let's call it Bovine Realism. Every possiblity that makes us the least bit uncomfortable we will label and dismiss. Environmentalists become "tree huggers" and we don't have to pay attention to them. Representatives for the underclass become "commies" and we can jail or assasinate them.

Could you try posting a rational argument? You know... one that doesn't rely on hyperbole to make a point?

Unregistered

01-03-2006, 08:25 PM

Never you worry about teacher salary. The time will soon come when the schools will be run as businesses are. Lessons will be scripted and para educators will run the computer rooms. As the economy becomes closer to that of the third world, labor costs will drop drastically, and people will beg for a chance to teach for minimum wage and no benefits. We have the mechanisms in place and as long as you remain as gullible as you have been up until now, these petty problems will cease to trouble you. We'll be making all the decisions for you. Soon now, very soon.

You paint a scary scenario. It sounds as if the writer is either a member of a neo-facist constortium or someone satirizing same. Which is it? If the latter, I must say you managed to touch upon my worst fears about what's going on in this country. I, for one, think Orwell was only wrong about the date.

Unregistered

01-03-2006, 09:14 PM

Actually, the writer probably hangs out with the Marxists.

Enough of the doomsday prophecies.

Unregistered

01-05-2006, 10:40 PM

Who are these Marxists? Are they someone we should hate or fear or despise simply because they have been given a label? Sort of like modern day witches, eh? I have an idea. Why don't you make us a list of all of the human beings who you despise through labeling.

Unregistered

01-06-2006, 12:02 AM

Marxists were the people who believed that the wealth should be shared with the workers who produce it. Later, there ideals were corrupted by authoritarians. The word "Marxist" still carries negative conotations for the elite (those born into wealth who use the power to separate people into classes) and those who serve their interests. The fall of the Soviet Empire is reputed to be the death knell of Marxist ideals. The use of the term as a pejorative generally indicates hostility towards the concept of shared wealth.

Unregistered

01-06-2006, 02:26 PM

Enough of the doomsday prophecies.

Yeah, whatever we do let's don't consider the potential outcome of our behavior. That might mean we would actually have to stop our selfish, destructive behavior and act like we're responsible for tomorrow.

Unregistered

02-13-2006, 04:29 PM

This is a website of a survey of teachers' salaries that I recently conducted. Feel free to take a look.

Unregistered

02-13-2006, 04:30 PM

http://home.att.net/~juliano1/Pages/teachers.htm

Unregistered

02-19-2006, 01:02 AM

Teaching is not a profession, it's a commitment they say that's why a teacher's salary is very low! But we need to survive too . . .
I am sorry to tell tou teaching is a JOB, and nothing but a job. Its not so much about the money as it is about the pension and the holidays.

Unregistered

02-19-2006, 01:45 AM

You say it's just a job. Somebody else says profession - calling - vocation . I guess it's a broad enough field to attract different folks for different reasons. Which is maybe one of the best things about teaching. Of course narrow minds will provide narrow definitions, which always seem to favor the definer.

Jack Furr

02-19-2006, 05:49 PM

I just continue to skip over the tripe offered by that "Unregistered" chap.
He/She, Shim/sher certainly gets around the board alot. Most prolific poster around. Unfortunately I skip over shim/shers posts as insignificant. Stand behind what you tripe, i mean write. But get registered first please! (So I will bother to read it).
By the way, if teaching was just a job, and nothing but a job, I would find something easier to do that actually paid me for all the free overtime I put in (like now).:cool:
Jack Furr
Good Teacher
Like Most

Tom Tuttle

02-19-2006, 06:02 PM

Hey, this is the internet! Here, all that matters is what you have to say. The many folks who sign in here as unregistered are every bit as valid as someone with an assumed moniker. So, think of something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion, and then come back when you have something to say.

Jack Furr

02-19-2006, 06:50 PM

But that was my contribution:p

Unregistered

02-19-2006, 08:21 PM

This is Lisa. I haven't posted in this thread in quite some time. The Unregistered poster is someone else.

And I quit posting as Lisa because people were arguing with every point I made simply because of who I was. The downside is that I am blamed for posts that are not even mine. But who cares?

Unregistered

02-19-2006, 10:03 PM

No, you're not! I'm Lisa. You're the imposter!

Jack Furr

02-20-2006, 07:42 AM

Get registered and stay registered, and these Lurkers won't be able to claim they are you. REAL teachers are not going to take the time to make cheap shots. People who FLAME and INFLAME are usually "wanna bees", professionals conduct themselves in a different manner IMHO.;)

Unregistered- Peggy

02-20-2006, 05:50 PM

BigDaddyTeacher

02-21-2006, 12:58 AM

I know I didn't choose this profession for the salary, but it sure is nice when those raises come through.
Our union just negotiated a 3.5% increase for this year - increase #1
I'm five months from finishing my masters in C&I - increase #2
I just finished my second year of probationary teaching, and am now a 'permanent' teacher - increase #3

Yes, I know that "permanent" in this job can be a fickle mistress - but I just wanted to share some good news in this particular forum.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else is reaching a personal educatinal milestone as well.

Cheers!

Unregistered

02-21-2006, 01:37 AM

In Pennsylvania the average teacher salary is $50,000 a year. We are contracted for about 193 days and must earn a Masters within 5 years and then are required to continue to earn credits (6) or 180 hours every 5 years thereafter. We are paid over the entire year, and do not recieve all of our pay by the time we fulfill our contract. (Thus the misguided notion that we have paid vacations.)

What difference does it make when you paid? What you describe sure sounds like a paid vacation to me.

Anyone who thinks that tenure is what keeps bad teachers in the classroom has not been an association representative or spoken to one lately. What keeps bad teachers in the classroom is administrators who do not keep up on observations and others who develop personal vendettas. Tenure prevents teachers from being fired because somebody's relative needs your job. There must be just cause. That is all.

It isn't so simple. A Principal often cannot go after an ill-performing teacher because the union threatens trouble. So the Principal has a choice: Tick off the union and the Superintindent, or just leave the situation alone and hope it doesn't cause too much trouble. After all, it isn't the Principal or the teacher that is being hurt.

Once a teacher gets tenure then things get really tough. Unless the teacher does something especially horrible, getting rid of her will be nearly impossible. She pretty much has a license to be as mediocre as she wants to be. And even if you do try to have her dismissed, the political price you pay wouldn't be worth it.

The idea that we have to protect teachers from nepotism is ridiculous. While this situation may crop up once in a blue moon, the teaching position is simply not that lucrative. I would bet there are far more instances of teachers hanging onto jobs well past their usefulness then unfair dismissals of quality teachers. I doubt it is even close.

If anything, the problem with nepotism is far worse at the higher levels of administration, since the pay is much higher and positions are far more competitive. But administrators do not have tenure.

If anyone needs tenure, it is the principal. He has almost no job security and is far more unprotected from district politics. Yet I don't even think he should be given tenure.

So why should a teacher be given tenure when the principal isn't? Just a food-for-thought question.

I can verify the business of losing money, but only for moving around, they can bounce you back down to step 5 in PA (from 16 in another district), this is not incentive to keep your resume of high quality. But....who decides who gets raises for doing a good job? The teacher with the gifted kids who all get A's? The teacher who teaches the subject that the administrator likes best? The football coach, cause he needs it? These are the questions that need answering before "merit pay" can ever work.

I think the administration could set rigorous, but doable, goals for teachers to receive merit pay. I think it can be done.

Jack Furr

02-22-2006, 06:58 PM

SC the (S)tate of (C)onfusion, they do not differentiate between Administrators and Teachers salaries, therefore; any salary comparison is a mute point. We have (supposedly) the lowest test scores on SAT tests, but we test over 73% of the seniors/juniors if they want to take the test. If you say "Unions Bad", "Free Market Good", then why the hell is the SAT indicator so low?? Can't explain that one can we?? Bad teachers? Don't know any personnally, now mediocre teachers?? I have met a few. But what is a mediocre teacher? Is it the one who thinks teaching is "just a job"?? Well that person has a right to that point of view. They have a right to ONLY work a 40 hr week. IS it the one who refuses to add to that 40hr week (coaching, sponsoring, calling home, meetings, credits to recertify), perhaps, but not in my book. Its hard to say. In our state ((SC) (S)tate of
(C)onfusion), teachers easily put in 60 plus hours a week and it still won't be enough.
And for that last "Math Expert", teachers are CONTRACTED for a certain number of work days a year, here 190. We DO NOT get paid for holidays (I have been in the industries that have paid vacation, it ain't this one). We do get sick days, and we do get sick (runny little noses, all over books, papers, desks, etc keep us sick). We "BANK" the pay and STRETCH it out over the year, so we get dinky little pay checks over a longer period, and the DISTRICT gets to keep the interest they get on our "held back" pay. Back to my original question, if Teacher Unions are "Bad", then we should have the highest SAT scores in the Union, since we are a "Right to Work" state (ie NO or little representation, rights, and certainly, no tenure).
What's up with that?

Unregistered

02-22-2006, 08:59 PM

If you say "Unions Bad", "Free Market Good", then why the hell is the SAT indicator so low??

First of all, I never said that unions were bad, only that I oppose one of the things unions fight for, tenure.

I can't answer your question because I am not certain what you are asking.

Can't explain that one can we?? Bad teachers? Don't know any personnally, now mediocre teachers?? I have met a few. But what is a mediocre teacher? Is it the one who thinks teaching is "just a job"??

We have been over this a million times, but I will define a bad teacher once more.

Bad teacher: A teacher that exhibits little training in her method, is ineffective, and couldn't care less.

I know a BUNCH.

Now, you say that you don't know of any bad teachers, and just a few mediocre ones. So why are the scores so low all across the country?

And for that last "Math Expert", teachers are CONTRACTED for a certain number of work days a year, here 190. We DO NOT get paid for holidays (I have been in the industries that have paid vacation, it ain't this one).

You're splitting hairs. Regardless of whether you are contracted for 190 days or 365, the pay would be the same for the same work. You can call it a paid vacation or not. Semantics don't matter.

Now, if the district mandated that you refrain from any non-school activities during the summer, then you could legitimately say that you did not have a vacation during that time. But if you can go to Fiji, it's a vacation.

We do get sick days, and we do get sick (runny little noses, all over books, papers, desks, etc keep us sick).

Oh, c'mon! Nurses spend far more time with far sicker people and they're not continuously sick.

We "BANK" the pay and STRETCH it out over the year, so we get dinky little pay checks over a longer period, and the DISTRICT gets to keep the interest they get on our "held back" pay. Back to my original question, if Teacher Unions are "Bad", then we should have the highest SAT scores in the Union, since we are a "Right to Work" state (ie NO or little representation, rights, and certainly, no tenure).
What's up with that?

You confuse correlation with cause/effect.

By the way, you unintentionally sunk the tenure-rights' main argument. You have no tenure in your own state, but you also said that you didn't know any bad teachers and only a few mediocre ones. Unfortunately, one of the main arguments supporting tenure relies on its necessity for attracting quality teachers. According to them, without tenure all we can hope to attract is sludge.

I'll let you sort it out.

Unregistered

02-22-2006, 09:34 PM

"Now, you say that you don't know of any bad teachers, and just a few mediocre ones. So why are the scores so low all across the country?"

Yes there are bad teachers out there....just like there are inefficient factory workers or unproductive sales people.

Low scores are NOT ACCEPTABLE under any circumstances.

However, to point the finger solely at teachers for poor test scores is a horrible idea.

I teach high school in a very rural 12 town regional high school. In this district 30% of the parents do not have a high school diploma. Furthermore 2/3rds of the students only have one biological parent.

To my students it doesn't matter what I do, some of the students are content with getting drunk and working day-labor type jobs just like their parents and in some cases their grandparents.

If a student refuses to do work, study, and open a book...is this the teachers fault too? Should I be following each of my students home and moving their eyeballs to read an assignment?

Is it any wonder these students do not perform well on basic tests?

Should I lose my job because John decided to play Playstation at home and not do his homework or his research paper therefore he fails the class?

Should I stop trying to teach this child? No. Should I try new strategies? Of course. The old adage is very appropriate here: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

I would like to think that even the blame teachers for everything crowd would agree that accountability also lies with the parents and students....

Finally, would you prefer a teacher that works hard but 40% of the students fail? Or would you prefer a teacher who could care less and shows movies in class but only one or two fail?

By the blame teacher logic the teacher who works hard and demands accountability from students is fired while the teacher who could cares less is rewarded.

Unregistered

02-23-2006, 05:01 AM

However, to point the finger solely at teachers for poor test scores is a horrible idea.

We have the primary responsibility for teaching the students the content. Therefore, poor performance on state tests falls on our laps, for the most part. I wouldn't have it any other way. As I have said in countless other threads, once teachers begin blaming others then bitterness and hopelessness set in. I am not going to let that happen to me.

I teach high school in a very rural 12 town regional high school. In this district 30% of the parents do not have a high school diploma. Furthermore 2/3rds of the students only have one biological parent.

The parents are not teaching the kids; we are. (That 30% figure is much lower than the area in which I work.) If a teacher relies on parental involvement, she is going to be in for a disappointment. So I suggest not relying on parents to help. Pure and simple.

Homework in my class is light, because the vast majority of all work is done inside the classroom. Research reports are written inside the classroom under careful supervision. This way, students simply are not allowed to opt out of the learning.

And I never send a kid home with homework I have not explicitly taught him how to do. How many teachers assign essays and reports with insufficient instruction on how to complete them? No wonder kids don't do them; they don't know how.

If a student refuses to do work, study, and open a book...is this the teachers fault too? Should I be following each of my students home and moving their eyeballs to read an assignment? The old adage is very appropriate here: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

In my classroom, when I want the horse to drink, he drinks. I cannot make the horse drink when he goes home, so I make him drink while he is in my classroom.

Homework is just practice in my class; it is never used to teach anything. So all student learning takes place where I have complete control.

When I teach science, all experiments and write-ups are done in class. The typical research/science project I see handed out is worthless. Completely worthless.

Finally, would you prefer a teacher that works hard but 40% of the students fail? Or would you prefer a teacher who could care less and shows movies in class but only one or two fail?

Well, if the movies are that effective then I would prefer the latter. But you make an interesting point -- is hard work sufficient? The teacher who employs effective teaching strategies typically doesn't have to work as hard. Those teachers who go home tired and frazzled at the end of the day are usually the poorer instructors, in my experience. So hard work alone is meaningless. If I use a backhoe to dig a ditch, and a colleague uses a shovel, then I'm the better ditch digger because I got the job done more efficiently. Who cares who worked harder?