IEP goals I refuse to follow...

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

or at the very least, interpret them to my advantage since I do know that refusal to follow can cost me my job...

For example...

No lie, I had an IEP that was inherited from the previous year, (therefore, I had no way to put up a stink about it when they wrote it), that said the teacher must provide a pen/pencil and paper for the child. That is complete horse crap and any ESE teacher that tries to write crap like that into an IEP will hear it from me in a conference and I WILL NOT sign it. It cheapens any real accomodation that the student may have, plus, as I often point out to my students who ask for school supplies from me, "I only have 1 student at my school that I supply pen/pencil and paper to, and she has my last name"

So, since I realized that I couldn't 'ignore' the accomodation, I interpretted it the way that got the point through to every idiot that signed that they approved that stupid accomodation.

I provided pen/paper and pencil everyday, to 'John'.... at the end of the period and I explained, "here is your supplies tomorrow, you must bring that to class tomorrow"

John's next question was "can I keep it in your class until tomorrow?"

to which I would reply

"No" and the reason, which I wouldn't say to him was that they need to write into that accomodation the next time they renew it, exactly WHEN I have to provide him supplies for the day. That way, while I'm sitting in the IEP renewal, I can say, in no uncertain terms, "I refuse to sign any accomodation that says I have to supply 'John' with school supplies.

Plus, even if they circumvent me and get some random "regular ed" teacher to sign knowing they won't look at what they sign, it won't matter as "john" won't be my problem next year as he will be 1 grade up, or at the very least, on the other team.


And the great thing about IEP's is I can interpret all accomodations I don't agree with the same way.

Other examples are
1. preferential seating - I prefer to have them sit wherever I want them to.
2. Must be allowed to retest until desired grade is achieved (another favorite of mine) - I allow re-takes as long as you meet these requirements (and then I make those requirements unachievable) I don't retest ANYONE. Or I will say, "to retest, you must make an appointment, at 7 am to retest" And when they say "I can't make it then", I'll say, I can't do it during class, or afterschool either due to teaching and coaching, so it's before school or nothing"

3. not really an IEP accomodation, but ESE teachers are dead set against homework grades, or counting daily work since they beleive that an ESE grade should be based on tests only. Instead, I call homework, an open-book test that they do once a week, at home (to allow for all the time they need to complete it, of course ;) ).

I combine everything into a test grade. All notebooks = 1 test. All homework = 1 test, all daily work = 1 test

[jagnace]

Are you worried about your students or the way the IEP is written? Sounds to me like you are pretty intent on making life miserable for everyone around you!

[Chocolate new orleans]

I'm worried about the ones who are trying to make it honestly, yet ESE kids are prevented from failing.


By middle school, ESE is a behavior management issue and if your kid isn't out of ESE by 5th grade, they are doomed.

There isn't an ESE kid at my school, that couldn't do the mainstream work without modifications if they had a parent at home worth a damn and who would stick a foot in the butt when needed to properly motivate them

ESE lacks the proper motivation to succeed, and I don't mean fun fridays, tokens, points or any of that other BS, I mean real life consequences of, a foot up the rump to help them associate failing with bad consequences

I just get tired of stupid accomodations for crap like "Johnny can't remember to bring his pencil, so the school and teacher should provide him with a pencil"

I crap you not on that accomodation. A previous reg. ed teacher signed that without looking and passed her problem onto me, only thing is, she compounded the problem

[Unregistered]

You sound like you're burned out!
You're not a special ed. teacher are you? No, nevermind... I already know the answer to that... you're way too judgmental to be in special ed.
What if the accommodation had been written to read that the student be able to keep a pencil case and supplies which he provided for himself in a corner of your room? How would you have interpreted that one? And what state do you live in that you're allowed to sign off on an IEP? In my state there are 2 signatures.... mine (the special ed. teacher) and the parent's .... you'd have no say... Why are you so bitter?
And I agree with the others who say that if your student has failed whether or not it's for laziness, it's because you have failed to engage the student

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

You sound like you're burned out!
You're not a special ed. teacher are you? No, nevermind... I already know the answer to that... you're way too judgmental to be in special ed.
What if the accommodation had been written to read that the student be able to keep a pencil case and supplies which he provided for himself in a corner of your room? How would you have interpreted that one? And what state do you live in that you're allowed to sign off on an IEP? In my state there are 2 signatures.... mine (the special ed. teacher) and the parent's .... you'd have no say... Why are you so bitter?
And I agree with the others who say that if your student has failed whether or not it's for laziness, it's because you have failed to engage the student

I was an ESE teacher for 3 years. I'm not now (although technically, I have all the ESE kids since Social Studies doesn't have a pullout class. I have every ESE kid mixed into my reg ed classes). In my state, you have an ESE teacher, parent, reg ed teacher sign.

But responding to your hypothetical... where does it stop, if I have to provide supplies, why don't they just say "regular ed teacher must provide $10 for pencils per paycheck? When does it become illegal. If I have to spend $$ to provide something for them, they can kiss my rump. I ain't going to do it. File a grievance.

If they said they provide it, I give a space, that's better, although, it's still a bit on the retarded side.

Besides, it's the student's job to pass or fail, not mine. I provide the information in a fair manner, to everyone equally. It's like when I coach. I provide the info to everyone equally, but not everyone picks it up the at the same rate, and I start the ones who pick it up the best and keep providing it equally to everyone. In sports, if you want to get better, YOU have to work harder, not the coach. I can't win for you. I can't pass for you either.

[kchap]

Mr. Chocolate,
It is rather refreshing to see that you can respond to posts in a more mannerly and tactful fashion than previously. You still get your point across, more effectively I might add, and you come across as a decent human being in contrast to how you come across when you are bitter, angry and rude. Novel concept, huh?

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Mr. Chocolate,
It is rather refreshing to see that you can respond to posts in a more mannerly and tactful fashion than previously. You still get your point across, more effectively I might add, and you come across as a decent human being in contrast to how you come across when you are bitter, angry and rude. Novel concept, huh?

:rolleyes: That's because you read the tone different. I haven't changed.

[kchap]

Uhhhh, HELLO! Of course I read the tone differently because YOUR tone was different. No mention was made of you being different, God forbid. Don't you get it? I am not trying to start an argument here. I just simply stated that your points and opinions can be made by being "nice". Sorry, you are not going to start a banter back and forth (arguing) from me. I will leave that to the unregisters who wish to respond to you. Thanks.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Uhhhh, HELLO! Of course I read the tone differently because YOUR tone was different. No mention was made of you being different, God forbid. Don't you get it? I am not trying to start an argument here. I just simply stated that your points and opinions can be made by being "nice". Sorry, you are not going to start a banter back and forth (arguing) from me. I will leave that to the unregisters who wish to respond to you. Thanks.

you just responded again.

Listen, bottom line, I don't care what you or the masses of unregistered useres (which in reality, is probably only 1 or 2) think or don't think. My tone wasn't any different than any other time, the subject was different and apparently, more people agree with me on this issue.

[Unregistered]

You have stated a lot of red button isssues on some of the blogs. You are either writing this information to get reactions or you really have no business being a teacher.


FYI: An IEP is a legal and binding document. You as the teacher can and will be held accountable. You need to adhere to everything is says whether you agree with it or not. There is NO room for interpretation. Are you in education for the wellbeing of the students or to have your summers off? Its appauling that you have a teaching job.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

You have stated a lot of red button isssues on some of the blogs. You are either writing this information to get reactions or you really have no business being a teacher.


FYI: An IEP is a legal and binding document. You as the teacher can and will be held accountable. You need to adhere to everything is says whether you agree with it or not. There is NO room for interpretation. Are you in education for the wellbeing of the students or to have your summers off? Its appauling that you have a teaching job.

you have to have 'interpretations", there is no way to write down exactly how to

and what happens when an IEP says (seat in front of class) but you get 15 kids with the same accomodation on it. I don't have 15 front seats.

so where is the line drawn. Writting up certain accomodations can be viewed as illegal. Where is the checks and balances to prevent SPED teachers from getting stupid with accomodations.

Look back to my "must provide school supplies" accomodation. That's BS. How can you write in an accomodation that takes money out of my pocket? Or one that is impossible to follow

[jmom]

or at the very least, interpret them to my advantage since I do know that refusal to follow can cost me my job...

For example...

No lie, I had an IEP that was inherited from the previous year, (therefore, I had no way to put up a stink about it when they wrote it), that said the teacher must provide a pen/pencil and paper for the child. That is complete horse crap and any ESE teacher that tries to write crap like that into an IEP will hear it from me in a conference and I WILL NOT sign it. It cheapens any real accomodation that the student may have, plus, as I often point out to my students who ask for school supplies from me, "I only have 1 student at my school that I supply pen/pencil and paper to, and she has my last name"

So, since I realized that I couldn't 'ignore' the accomodation, I interpretted it the way that got the point through to every idiot that signed that they approved that stupid accomodation.

I provided pen/paper and pencil everyday, to 'John'.... at the end of the period and I explained, "here is your supplies tomorrow, you must bring that to class tomorrow"

John's next question was "can I keep it in your class until tomorrow?"

to which I would reply

"No" and the reason, which I wouldn't say to him was that they need to write into that accomodation the next time they renew it, exactly WHEN I have to provide him supplies for the day. That way, while I'm sitting in the IEP renewal, I can say, in no uncertain terms, "I refuse to sign any accomodation that says I have to supply 'John' with school supplies.

Plus, even if they circumvent me and get some random "regular ed" teacher to sign knowing they won't look at what they sign, it won't matter as "john" won't be my problem next year as he will be 1 grade up, or at the very least, on the other team.


And the great thing about IEP's is I can interpret all accomodations I don't agree with the same way.

Other examples are
1. preferential seating - I prefer to have them sit wherever I want them to.
2. Must be allowed to retest until desired grade is achieved (another favorite of mine) - I allow re-takes as long as you meet these requirements (and then I make those requirements unachievable) I don't retest ANYONE. Or I will say, "to retest, you must make an appointment, at 7 am to retest" And when they say "I can't make it then", I'll say, I can't do it during class, or afterschool either due to teaching and coaching, so it's before school or nothing"

3. not really an IEP accomodation, but ESE teachers are dead set against homework grades, or counting daily work since they beleive that an ESE grade should be based on tests only. Instead, I call homework, an open-book test that they do once a week, at home (to allow for all the time they need to complete it, of course ;) ).

I combine everything into a test grade. All notebooks = 1 test. All homework = 1 test, all daily work = 1 test

I have only run across a teacher like you once and believe me once was enough. A teacher who believed my son did not belong in his gym class and did not have any concept of IDEA or the 504 plan. It was another caring special ed teacher who brought it to my attention all the ridiculous things this man was putting my son through. If it were 40 or 60 years ago you could get away with this kind of thinking. My son does not have to be drooling to be disabled. Kicking him in the butt will do no good. All you do is show your ignorance on this board. Which is pretty sad for a so called teacher. There will always be disabled children mainstreamed in the classrooms so you better get use to it or if you can't deal find another profession. :rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

You may not be teaching for long because yes you can lose your job! IEPs are legally binding documents that must be followed to the letter and you need to document how you are following the IEP. With the attitude that you currently have it is only a matter of time before you end up in a due process hearing, which by the way, you will definitely lose because of the type of language you are currently using. When you sign an IEP you are simply signing that you are in attendance, not giving approval because no one is asking for your approval. There was a case where a regular education teacher was sued in civil court because a teacher did not follow the IEP. Well, that teacher was found guilty and the judge order this teacher to pay over a million dollars to the family. This money had to come out of the teacher's pocket because it was a civil proceeding and the judge would not allow PSEA insurance to pay.

One other thing, what is equal is not always fair. I tell my kids this all the time. For example, I would not allow a blind 10 year old to cross a busy highway by himself just because his 10 year old sighted-cousin can cross the same highway without difficulty. You obviously have no empathy for others so hopefully none of your children or grandchildren have a severe disability where others such as yourself can treat them with such hate.

[Unregistered]

If the IEP says you have to supply these materials on a daily basis requisition them from the main office or the sped office. They put this requirement in the IEP. You are legally obligated to fulfill it. You are not legally obligated to fund it. The school department is legally obligated to fund it.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I have only run across a teacher like you once and believe me once was enough. A teacher who believed my son did not belong in his gym class and did not have any concept of IDEA or the 504 plan. It was another caring special ed teacher who brought it to my attention all the ridiculous things this man was putting my son through. If it were 40 or 60 years ago you could get away with this kind of thinking. My son does not have to be drooling to be disabled. Kicking him in the butt will do no good. All you do is show your ignorance on this board. Which is pretty sad for a so called teacher. There will always be disabled children mainstreamed in the classrooms so you better get use to it or if you can't deal find another profession. :rolleyes:

adhd (i read in another post that your kid has that) won't get a kid kicked out of PE. That kid acting like a tailhole all period, then playing it off on his so-called condition will.

If he is too uncontrollable in a PE setting, I can only imagine how bad it is in a class setting. But you enable him to act that way and use ADHD as his crutch.

If your son fails science, it's not because he wouldn't ever shut his mouth, stay in his seat, do his work and heaven forbid STUDY, it's because the teacher didn't 'reach' your child.

you failed that child a long time ago. And your success rate in getting kids through highschool leaves a lot to be desired.


I will say I did learn something in this thread. Making the school pay for it. Makes perfect sense. However, the IEP said "must provide student, yada, yada, yada" It made no reference to time. So providing Yada, yada at the end of class doesn't mean I broke the law by not following the IEP. I did follow it. I just had to makes some interpretations of the meaning in a similar fashion that the Constitution is interpreted, the Bible is interpreted, ect.

and to the "what is equal, isn't always fair" comment should be reversed, what is fair isn't always equal. I see you have taken all the same ESE classes I have. And despite what everyone thinks about me... I minored in ESE education was certified in ESE for 3 years (until I realized that having ESE on your certificate meant you were going to have to teach it no matter what your real certification said) I wanted to teach social studies, not ESE, so I dropped the ESE.

I stated it before, I am not ignoring the IEP, I do everything on an IEP, but I interpret it differently than others do.

YOu interpret "allow student to retake test to achieve desired score" as, they can retest 100 times if they choose. Meaning, you have to grade a test 100 times (now multiply that by the 50 out of 105 students I have that have that same accomadation)

I interpret "allow student to retake test to achieve desired score" as, they can retest, but they must show they are ready to retest. They have to have all homeworks/dailyworks up to date before they retest on a chapter. And guess how many times that happens. However, it does happen from time to time and I retest. But in the last 4 years, I have retested 3 students.

You interpret "preferential seating" as, student up front.
I interpret "preferential seating" as, student is in the best place for the class, which could be up front, or it could be in the back corner. If the kid is going to flunk, maybe putting him in seat in the back, so he doens't bring everybody around him down, is preferable.

it's all in interpretation.

[Unregistered]

I hope you understand that teachers like you can be held legally responsible for knowingly and intentionally violating the rights of disabled students.
So when you play games like providing pencils at the end of class as opposed to the start........think about the damages you may be held accountable for.
Do yourself a favor and google an attorney named Steven Wyner.....do one step more add Manhattan Beach to the search and tell me what you learn. I hope the parents of your students hire this man!

[kchap]

I have a question for you, Mr. Chocolate, as I know you frequent each and every thread. In previous threads you mention that you have a child in school. I am assuming he/she does not have an IEP. Now, my question is simple........how, and to what extent, would you expect your child's educators to follow your child's IEP if one existed? If you were aware that the teachers involved were knowingly and willingly NOT following the IEP (even following your "interpretation" theory), what would you do? I am taking the liberty of speaking for those of us on this forum who are troubled by your thoughts on IEPs and why you think you are above the law. I do not agree with all IEPs of children in my classroom, but I follow them. I would not dare "interpret" them, taking the liberties to "tweak and alter" them just to prove a point, much less to blatantly boast about it. I am rather confused by your contradictions that run all the way through this forum. You expect your students and athletes that you coach to follow your rules........well, need I say more. One suggestions, BTW, brush up on your use of "their, there and they're" and the use of ETCETRA, which is abbreviated ETC., not ECT.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I have a question for you, Mr. Chocolate, as I know you frequent each and every thread. In previous threads you mention that you have a child in school. I am assuming he/she does not have an IEP. Now, my question is simple........how, and to what extent, would you expect your child's educators to follow your child's IEP if one existed? If you were aware that the teachers involved were knowingly and willingly NOT following the IEP (even following your "interpretation" theory), what would you do? I am taking the liberty of speaking for those of us on this forum who are troubled by your thoughts on IEPs and why you think you are above the law. I do not agree with all IEPs of children in my classroom, but I follow them. I would not dare "interpret" them, taking the liberties to "tweak and alter" them just to prove a point, much less to blatantly boast about it. I am rather confused by your contradictions that run all the way through this forum. You expect your students and athletes that you coach to follow your rules........well, need I say more. One suggestions, BTW, brush up on your use of "their, there and they're" and the use of ETCETRA, which is abbreviated ETC., not ECT.
picking at grammar mistakes is just a sign of the fact you guys can't control you're (j/k - your) rage at my ideals. When this board requires thesis level grammar, I'll readjust my grammar, until then, you'll continue to enrage over it, I suppose.

either way, back to the point.

IEP's that make reasonable accomodations are fine. I have no problems allowing for as much time as needed for tests, ect. It's the rediculous accomodations. And yes, I can tell which ones are rediculous. What limits do ESE teachers have with IEP's. Heck, are you telling me that if the IEP says "student can receive no less than a passing grade" then I am required to pass them? What stops them from saying it?

That's what pisses me off so much about IEP's. There has to be a limit placed on IEP's that prevents ESE teachers (some of which don't have the kid in an actual class) from writing an assenine IEP and legally binding a reg ed teacher who has 150 other students. All too often, ESE teachers write IEP's with a small class setting in mind, (like they have), but the accomodations don't work in a large class setting like reg ed teachers have

[jmom]

adhd (i read in another post that your kid has that) won't get a kid kicked out of PE. That kid acting like a tailhole all period, then playing it off on his so-called condition will.

If he is too uncontrollable in a PE setting, I can only imagine how bad it is in a class setting. But you enable him to act that way and use ADHD as his crutch.

If your son fails science, it's not because he wouldn't ever shut his mouth, stay in his seat, do his work and heaven forbid STUDY, it's because the teacher didn't 'reach' your child.

you failed that child a long time ago. And your success rate in getting kids through highschool leaves a lot to be desired.


I will say I did learn something in this thread. Making the school pay for it. Makes perfect sense. However, the IEP said "must provide student, yada, yada, yada" It made no reference to time. So providing Yada, yada at the end of class doesn't mean I broke the law by not following the IEP. I did follow it. I just had to makes some interpretations of the meaning in a similar fashion that the Constitution is interpreted, the Bible is interpreted, ect.

and to the "what is equal, isn't always fair" comment should be reversed, what is fair isn't always equal. I see you have taken all the same ESE classes I have. And despite what everyone thinks about me... I minored in ESE education was certified in ESE for 3 years (until I realized that having ESE on your certificate meant you were going to have to teach it no matter what your real certification said) I wanted to teach social studies, not ESE, so I dropped the ESE.

I stated it before, I am not ignoring the IEP, I do everything on an IEP, but I interpret it differently than others do.

YOu interpret "allow student to retake test to achieve desired score" as, they can retest 100 times if they choose. Meaning, you have to grade a test 100 times (now multiply that by the 50 out of 105 students I have that have that same accomadation)

I interpret "allow student to retake test to achieve desired score" as, they can retest, but they must show they are ready to retest. They have to have all homeworks/dailyworks up to date before they retest on a chapter. And guess how many times that happens. However, it does happen from time to time and I retest. But in the last 4 years, I have retested 3 students.

You interpret "preferential seating" as, student up front.
I interpret "preferential seating" as, student is in the best place for the class, which could be up front, or it could be in the back corner. If the kid is going to flunk, maybe putting him in seat in the back, so he doens't bring everybody around him down, is preferable.

it's all in interpretation.
Chocolate,

You must have me mixed up with someone else. My son has Autism. I expect and demand his IEP be followed. It is a legal document to protect his rights to a free and appropriate education. I never said anything about retaking a test over and over again until he passes. That is not what an IEP is for. It's for trying to reach objectives and goals a certain percentage of times. If not met then we take a step back and try something else. I have never failed my son. How dare you assume you know me or my son. My son graduated this year. He did not pass the exit exam and did not get a diploma. Since he has Autism he is in a life skills program under the school district until he is 21 therefore he is still eligible to take the exam exam twice a year. This fall he passed the math part and was 1 point away from passing the reading and 3 points for passing the writing. Now you compare that when he was about 7 years old and could hardly form a sentence, could not write, could not dress himself, would have meltdowns from hell and I would say he has come a long ways. He loves Shakespeare. His favorite movies is to Kill a Mocking Bird, 12 Angry Men, Hamlet etc...

I contribute his success to myself and my husband, advocating and all the great teachers that have been in his life. When he graduated and walked he even had teachers from elementary school come to watch him graduate.

His teachers reached him. They all loved him even the PE teacher after some understanding came to like having him in his class. I have the utmost respect for teachers especially the ones I have encountered. I am just thanking God you were not one of them. You are a mean and hateful person. I have read many of your posts and have decided after this response I will not waste my time on you anymore. You are not worth it.

[Unregistered]

To Jmom
I admire your response to Mr. Chocolate. He crosses the line for shock value. In your heart you know what a wonderful job your son's teachers have done and what a wonderful person your son is. I presented a question to Mr. Chocolate and he refuses to answer. I have presented several questions to him in the past posts, and he skirts the issue every time. I can only hope that if his child had an IEP, he would feel differently. But, who knows??? You are so right, he is not worth the time and effort to respond to his closed-minded, inflated and warped ego. The scary part is, he is a teacher. I use the term loosely.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

unregistered - I can't recall your question that "i skirt" around. all you unregistered folk blend to me, reask it, I'll try to see if I can accomodate you (even though it's not on your IEP)

jmom - apparently, I do have you mixed up with someone else.

[Unregistered]

I hope you understand that teachers like you can be held legally responsible for knowingly and intentionally violating the rights of disabled students.
So when you play games like providing pencils at the end of class as opposed to the start........think about the damages you may be held accountable for.
Do yourself a favor and google an attorney named Steven Wyner.....do one step more add Manhattan Beach to the search and tell me what you learn. I hope the parents of your students hire this man!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

tell me what accomodation I didn't provide.

I DID provide a pencil and paper to said student

Prove to me that I am breaking the law.

It's like the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" Does that mean, kill period, killing animals, killing in self-defense, killing in war, killing a bug with your car windshield? There has to be interpretation

Think in terms of the govt. Does right to bear arms mean a gun in every house, or just during revolutionary times? It's open to interpretation and debate.

Same with IEP's. ESE teachers better be damn sure they write what they mean. If they want the pen/paper to be provided at the beginning of class, they better word it that way. What happens if we are watching a movie that day, do I still have to provide pen/paper to student? Can I be held legally responsible if I don't?

Interpretation.

and I alluded to this question earlier, didn't get a response, so I'll ask more directly...

what holds ESE teachers in check? At what point does an accomodation become unreasonable and if it is unreasonable, why should it have to be followed? What recourse do regular ed teachers have to challenge stupid accomodations? In the govt. there is a process and a law can be declared unconstitutional. With IEP's there is no recourse. So if a ESE teacher says

Teacher must not record any grade below 60 (lowest D in my district)

in essence, careful wording of that says that I am not allowed to record a failing kid, no matter what.

[Unregistered]

Chocolate,
May God help all the poor children that have to put up with you each day. I know that there are many good teachers out there, but it's teachers like you that have forced me to home school my own children.
Please leave the teaching profession before you damage anymore young minds.
I could only hope that your administrators recognized your posts and let you go for your behavior on here.

[BigDaddyTeacher]

Oh boy, here we go!

Chocolate…I know that there are many good teachers out there, but it's teachers like you that have forced me to home school my own children. Please leave the teaching profession before you damage anymore young minds. I could only hope that your administrators recognized your posts and let you go for your behavior on here.

An aside to JMOM and the various Unregisterds out there: Before you proceed, you should know that I worked in the Special Education dept. of my district for 4 years before moving on to a regular classroom posting, so I am intimately familiar with IEP and 504 and IDEA rules. I understand a parent’s instinct to fight for their children.

Having said that, and at the risk of…oh the heck with it.
Sorry, Unregistered, but I’m on Chocolate’s side on this one. He’s right – it’s all in the interpretation of the paperwork. Way back when, ChNO said:

I stated it before, I am not ignoring the IEP, I do everything on an IEP, but I interpret it differently than others do.
You interpret "allow student to retake test to achieve desired score" as, they can retest 100 times if they choose…
I interpret "allow student to retake test to achieve desired score" as, they can retest, but they must show they are ready to retest. They have to have all homeworks/dailyworks up to date before they retest on a chapter…in the last 4 years, I have retested 3 students.

That sounds more than fair to me. The requirement of the IEP is being followed, AND the student is even being given extra time to prepare for the retest. As a teacher, one would hope that the parents are also assisting the student in preparing for the retest. I know that even the most vocal of parents are not always capable of following along with their student’s class-work/homework. So…that leaves the teacher, tutors, classroom aides, and other school resources, to help the student prepare. Why aren’t they being held to the “spirit” of the IEP?

ChNO also said:

You interpret "preferential seating" as, student up front.
I interpret "preferential seating" as, student is in the best place for the class, which could be up front, or it could be in the back corner. If the kid is going to flunk, maybe putting him in seat in the back, so he doesn't bring everybody around him down, is preferable.

Again, this sounds more than fair. :Preferential: is defined as – “A practical advantage given to one over others.” So, perhaps a seat towards the back, middle, or side is better for this student…not just a front row seat. I have 7 students with IEPs in one of my blocks. Every single one of them has “preferential seating” on their IEP. And just like ChNO, I don’t have 7 front row seats. So…I ‘prefer’ to pair them with higher-achieving students – students who not only can do their work, but are able to assist their partner is doing the work.

As for the pencil and paper issue, well…every single student was given a course syllabus at the beginning of the year. In fact, we just reviewed it the day we returned after Christmas Break. It clearly states that all students must come to school prepared. That includes all supplies that will be needed to perform well – pencils, pens, paper, erasers…you get the picture. Personally, I would question any IEP that requires me OR the school to provide these basic school supplies. This responsibility lies strictly with the family.

IEPs are intended to help students who have learning difficulties perform better. If they discuss seating, additional time to complete assignments, basic modifications to tests or quizzes, I’m all for that. They should not be about who provides something to write with.

And that’s my buck and two cents!
BDT

[jmom]

Oh boy, here we go!



An aside to JMOM and the various Unregisterds out there: Before you proceed, you should know that I worked in the Special Education dept. of my district for 4 years before moving on to a regular classroom posting, so I am intimately familiar with IEP and 504 and IDEA rules. I understand a parent’s instinct to fight for their children.

Having said that, and at the risk of…oh the heck with it.
Sorry, Unregistered, but I’m on Chocolate’s side on this one. He’s right – it’s all in the interpretation of the paperwork. Way back when, ChNO said:



That sounds more than fair to me. The requirement of the IEP is being followed, AND the student is even being given extra time to prepare for the retest. As a teacher, one would hope that the parents are also assisting the student in preparing for the retest. I know that even the most vocal of parents are not always capable of following along with their student’s class-work/homework. So…that leaves the teacher, tutors, classroom aides, and other school resources, to help the student prepare. Why aren’t they being held to the “spirit” of the IEP?

ChNO also said:



Again, this sounds more than fair. :Preferential: is defined as – “A practical advantage given to one over others.” So, perhaps a seat towards the back, middle, or side is better for this student…not just a front row seat. I have 7 students with IEPs in one of my blocks. Every single one of them has “preferential seating” on their IEP. And just like ChNO, I don’t have 7 front row seats. So…I ‘prefer’ to pair them with higher-achieving students – students who not only can do their work, but are able to assist their partner is doing the work.

As for the pencil and paper issue, well…every single student was given a course syllabus at the beginning of the year. In fact, we just reviewed it the day we returned after Christmas Break. It clearly states that all students must come to school prepared. That includes all supplies that will be needed to perform well – pencils, pens, paper, erasers…you get the picture. Personally, I would question any IEP that requires me OR the school to provide these basic school supplies. This responsibility lies strictly with the family.

IEPs are intended to help students who have learning difficulties perform better. If they discuss seating, additional time to complete assignments, basic modifications to tests or quizzes, I’m all for that. They should not be about who provides something to write with.

And that’s my buck and two cents!
BDT


I agree with you. I do not think a student should be retested over and over again when they are not getting the material. Actually that is exactly what my son's PE teacher was doing to my son and it was never written in his IEP. My son got so frustrated having to take that test over and over again that tennis that he loved he now hates.

I also think if an IEP is written appropriately there shouldn't be much interpretation to it. As far as providing pencil and paper to a student I do not know the circumstances of that student. All I can say is I provided it for my other two children and certainly provided all school supplies needed for my son.

I like your idea of the way you seat the kids in Special eduacation in your class and think that is an awesome idea.

I understand how hard it is for a regular education teacher to have a special education student in their class. Realizing that my son would not get what he needed in a regular education class because I know he is not the only one in that class room to learn. I also realize the teacher in that class can not spend all of their time with just my son. Realizing all of this is why I fought so hard for him to have a TA in his classes with him which he did. His TA was basically in charge of any modifications that may be needed and not the regular teacher.

I can say with certainty that after school I was there for at least 2-3 hours with my son helping him to understand and study his subjects.

Mainstreaming is a hot button issue there is no doubt about it. When it was first mentioned to me when my son was going into third grade I almost said no because I was scared. I felt like he was more protected and it gave me a sense of security when he was in a self contained class room. Making the choice to mainstream him with a TA was the best decision I ever made in his school career. His growth and learning abilities grew in leaps and bounds by being with regular ed students. At the same time not only was he learning from them they were learning from him. They were learning tolerance and acceptance. They were learning that they wanted to try to help someone who was not exactly like them.

Bottom line every school district is different. Every special ed student is different and every parent is different. I made sure his IEPs were written with objectives and goals to be met a percentage of time and like I said if it was not achievable we went down a step so he could learn so he could go back to the next step. Any accommodations that were provided for him I made sure before signing that these could truly be done in the school. I not only maintained contact with his special education teachers on a daily basis but with his regular teachers on a weekly basis to see how he was doing in their class.

One of the reasons I have stayed in Alaska since 1990 when I wanted to move back south so bad was because of the school district here.

Anyway that's my buck and two cents as well :)

[Unregistered]

Are you held accountable for this child's progress? As a teacher, don't you want him to succeed? How in the world can you not put your best foot foward and his best interest first? Chocolate, my frustration and irritation for you grows with every post I read. If you are not going to educate ESE students the way the law demands, then find something else to do. Go call Bingo, you make more money working 3 days a week than a teacher does anyhow.

Interpret this anyway you wish.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Are you held accountable for this child's progress? As a teacher, don't you want him to succeed? How in the world can you not put your best foot foward and his best interest first? Chocolate, my frustration and irritation for you grows with every post I read. If you are not going to educate ESE students the way the law demands, then find something else to do. Go call Bingo, you make more money working 3 days a week than a teacher does anyhow.

Interpret this anyway you wish.

I, also, have taught ESE, written IEP's, am familiar with 504's, IDEA and :eek: :eek: , I'm certified ESE (or was until I dropped the certification realizing that I would never get into social Studies with ESE cert on my teaching certificate).

I provide education to kids, I don't coddle them, hold their hands, beg and plead them into doing it. The 'real world' damn sure won't do it, why does education feel the need to get these kids used to it.

"why should I settle down and do my work by the end of class, they will give me extra time."
"why study, they'll let me retake the test"
"why bring pencil and paper, they'll provide it for me"

could you imagine if I were to go into a corporate setting and say

"No, I don't have the presentation done yet, I was partying all week and I need more time"
"I don't know what the customer wants, nobody told me"
"I didn't bring my office supplies because I think the company should supply it all."

Whether or not you guys think I'm a jerk or not does not change the fact that what I am saying is 100% right on the money. But because you don't like me, you dismiss the ideas.

IEP's are jokes 99% of the time. Show me an IEP that DOESN'T have "preferential seating" or "extended test time" and I'll believe it's "INDIVIDUALIZED". Usually, if the kid sits their little arse down, quits the BS horseplay, the drama-production they call their existence, shut up and listen, they wouldn't have all the educational problems they have. What does 'extended test time' have to do with your child's inability to STFU and take his test without trying to talk about the lunch drama that day. NOTHING!

I have also tried to pair ESE with regular so the regular helps the ESE, but that fails misrably as it's not the regular kid helping the ESE kid, it's the ESE kid dragging down the regular kid.


you believe the childs' best interest is making sure he passes with at least a D, no matter what bad habits he develops, I believe it's in the child's best interest to teach him the right ways to pass himself, even if that means holding them back once or twice.

I'm going to BOLD the next paragraph as I can sum up a lot of my beliefs in this analogy...

Think of it like typing. Every typer, when they start, can type faster by 1 finger typing. However, the potential for faster typing is when they have their hands in the proper position, so, you must make them type the correct way, even though that holds them back at first. ESE accomodations says "Why don't you just give a typer extended time for his different typing (read learning) strategy"

[Unregistered]

Mr. Chocolate - What goes around comes around. No matter how you justify yourself, you are violating the rights of these kids. Some day, you may find yourself in the situation where you are dependent on others, the way these kids are on you. If that happens, think about how you would feel if your caretakers ignored your needs. Please do not take your obvious anger out on your students!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Mr. Chocolate - What goes around comes around. No matter how you justify yourself, you are violating the rights of these kids. Some day, you may find yourself in the situation where you are dependent on others, the way these kids are on you. If that happens, think about how you would feel if your caretakers ignored your needs. Please do not take your obvious anger out on your students!

Kharma is BS

Tell me how I'm violating their right to retesting. I am providing ESE kids the opportunity to retest that I offer no other kid, but there is always should be a cost of ownership to that opportunity or else he wastes my time and their own. I provided the opportunity, the student chose not to take advantage

Tell me how I'm violating their right to preferential seating. I am putting them in what I deem a preferential seat. Just because someone else's definition of preferential seat is in the front row, doesn't make it where mine is.

Tell me how I'm violating the BS right to providing pen and paper (like my IEP said 3 years ago and the example I gave at the beginning). Just because someone else's definition is at the beginning of class doesn't make it my definition. I provided pen and paper at the end of each class and told him "this is tomorrow's supply, bring it with you" I supplied pen and paper, just like the IEP stated. The student chose not to bring those supplies the next day.

[Unregistered]

I agree with Mr. Chocolate....

IEP's have become outrageous....and sometimes interpreations such as Mr. Chocolate are the only way to stay sane....

For example, these are the following accomadation I must make for a senior in high school....what is his "disability"....."xxx suffers from Attention Defecit Disorder" no other additional disabilities.

Accomodations the teacher must make:

The teacher will:

Provide preferential seating (out by the dumpster is that ok?)
Have an administrator present prior to administering any consequences.
Provide a copy of teacher notes and any supplmental teacher notes.
Send student to resource room for tests and quizzes.
Provide additional copy of teacher notes and supplemental notes for use on tests and quizzes
Provide an additional textbook to be placed in resource room and allow its use on tests and quizzes.
Allow extra time (2 class periods) for completion of a test.
Allow student to re-take test and quiz grades below an 80%.
Allow student 3-5 extra days to submit assignments.
Break-up long term assignments into smaller assignmnets with intermediate due dates.
Do not penalize xxxxx for turning assignments in late. (so he can turn in as much work as he wants the last day of the school year and receive full credit)
Reduce writing expectations by 1/2.
Provide opportunities for hands-on learning in lieu of regular class assignments.


So, like Mr. Chocolate somedays I do not have "teacher notes" as our disucssion or topic is all straight from my brain. If I don't make up teacher notes I don't have to give this kid a copy.

Second, when this kid calls me an @%$*! when I ask where he has been when he comes into my class 5 minutes late...I can't discipline him I have to call the office and get an administrator (if one is not in meeting) while the rest of the class has to sit there and watch this kid be a degrading disrespectful punk.

Sometimes I don't feel like going through the process of re-grading multiple tests so I ask xxxx "Did you study?" his answer is always "No." (Why would he when he gets everything in the world except the answer key to take the test.) So I tell him, take this test if he wants to do better than an 80% otherwise he will get the 80%

Clearly, this is just insane. On top of this I have to teach 24 other kids (6 more with IEPs) These modifications are not meant to help this kid (I see these modifications of being real help in 4 months when he has his diploma) these are meant to nearly get this kid a diploma and improve our school's graduation rate.

For all of those who criticize Mr. Chocolate, grow-up, he is not talking about severe disabilties but students who are otherwise capable of doing work but are enabled by the special education system.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

For all of those who criticize Mr. Chocolate, grow-up, he is not talking about severe disabilties but students who are otherwise capable of doing work but are enabled by the special education system.


there you go, I'm not talking about the profoundly mentally challenged. I figured that was assumed, but I guess it wasn't.

kids, nowadays, are too enabled. You summed it up perfectly.

[Unregistered]

I stumbled across this page and was shocked to read Chocolate New Orleans' comments. I've been a special ed teacher in New Orleans for 3 years now, and these kids teach me way more than I'll ever teach them. These children deserve to be treated with respect. And as for Chocolate New Orleans his screen name speaks volumes of his ignorance.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

they taught me something too, they taught me, when they say the Cat 4 storm is coming for a city that's 20 ft below sea level..... LEAVE


other than that, your 'holier than thou' attitude is nothing new. You stay in ESE paradise, and I'll teach kids who are there to learn.

[Unregistered]

Chocolate,

I have been reading your replies for some time now and you are either a very STUPID person or writing these statements for attention.



I wish that your administrators and the parents of your students would read your cold hearted statements. I would really love to see you inner thoughts.

You are not cut out to be a teacher. Please start looking for another profession!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-[

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Chocolate,

I have been reading your replies for some time now and you are either a very STUPID person or writing these statements for attention.



I wish that your administrators and the parents of your students would read your cold hearted statements. I would really love to see you inner thoughts.

You are not cut out to be a teacher. Please start looking for another profession!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-[

typical response. "I don't agree with you so you should get out of the profession" :rolleyes:

[you're chocolate]

If you don't follow the IEP, you'll get fired. I hope you don't follow it one time because I want you fired and I don't even know you.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

If you don't follow the IEP, you'll get fired. I hope you don't follow it one time because I want you fired and I don't even know you.

typical response for someone we didn't accomodate in reading for.

Show me where I didn't follow the IEP.

I follow letter of the law, screw the intent.

[Unregistered]

you're assanine

[Unregistered]

Chocolate displays oppositional defiant behavior,
lack of regard to authoritative figures,
and overinflated sense of self,
fixation and obsession with a single IEP,
Has problems with appropriate social interaction,
Feels a need to vent in one way conversations,
Prone to tantrum and tirade. Lacks empathy, or
what is termed "Theory of Mind", the ability to
relate to others. Has a strong need to remain in
control of his environment. These schizoid disorders,
are not unlike some of the Asperger or Auties, that
I work with as a ST. Maybe, Choc needs
an age appropriate Behavior Support Plan of his own.
Also may be suffering from PTSD after the Orleans flood.

[Unregistered]

Oops, forgot to mention : Chocolate is not a very good problem
solver-as he seems to get stuck on specifics, not a real
"big picture" guy, likes to fixate on syntax, and
word games. Needs assistance, from peers, social stories,
positive feedback, perhaps, someone could send Chocolate
some pencils and supplies for his schoolwork :).
Suggestions for Chocolate New Orleans' (CNO) Behavioral
Support Plan include: ignoring him, compression (hugs),
consequences, time outs, early retirement, a more appropriate job
environment where his needs can be met. Maybe something
in denying persons insurance claims, at some large faceless
corporation...

[Unregistered]

Hey, CNO interpret this:

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature will reap destruction."
-Galatians 6:7-8

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I agree with Mr. Chocolate....

IEP's have become outrageous....and sometimes interpreations such as Mr. Chocolate are the only way to stay sane....

For example, these are the following accomadation I must make for a senior in high school....what is his "disability"....."xxx suffers from Attention Defecit Disorder" no other additional disabilities.

Accomodations the teacher must make:

The teacher will:

Provide preferential seating (out by the dumpster is that ok?)
Have an administrator present prior to administering any consequences.
Provide a copy of teacher notes and any supplmental teacher notes.
Send student to resource room for tests and quizzes.
Provide additional copy of teacher notes and supplemental notes for use on tests and quizzes
Provide an additional textbook to be placed in resource room and allow its use on tests and quizzes.
Allow extra time (2 class periods) for completion of a test.
Allow student to re-take test and quiz grades below an 80%.
Allow student 3-5 extra days to submit assignments.
Break-up long term assignments into smaller assignmnets with intermediate due dates.
Do not penalize xxxxx for turning assignments in late. (so he can turn in as much work as he wants the last day of the school year and receive full credit)
Reduce writing expectations by 1/2.
Provide opportunities for hands-on learning in lieu of regular class assignments.


So, like Mr. Chocolate somedays I do not have "teacher notes" as our disucssion or topic is all straight from my brain. If I don't make up teacher notes I don't have to give this kid a copy.

Second, when this kid calls me an @%$*! when I ask where he has been when he comes into my class 5 minutes late...I can't discipline him I have to call the office and get an administrator (if one is not in meeting) while the rest of the class has to sit there and watch this kid be a degrading disrespectful punk.

Sometimes I don't feel like going through the process of re-grading multiple tests so I ask xxxx "Did you study?" his answer is always "No." (Why would he when he gets everything in the world except the answer key to take the test.) So I tell him, take this test if he wants to do better than an 80% otherwise he will get the 80%

Clearly, this is just insane. On top of this I have to teach 24 other kids (6 more with IEPs) These modifications are not meant to help this kid (I see these modifications of being real help in 4 months when he has his diploma) these are meant to nearly get this kid a diploma and improve our school's graduation rate.

For all of those who criticize Mr. Chocolate, grow-up, he is not talking about severe disabilties but students who are otherwise capable of doing work but are enabled by the special education system.


Glad someone gets it

[Unregistered]

Hello,

I am saddened by a lot of what I have read in this thread. I have both a niece and nephew who have special needs and needed an IEP.

My niece has severe asthma and had to have a modified curriculum to excuse her from any outdoor gym activity or science lab project that had a high potential to trigger her asthma. A teacher ignored this modification at one point because he/she did not feel that is was valid and was just an excuse to get out of gym and my neice ended up in the emergency room and could have died. The other modifications listed in her IEP were to allow for more frequent days out of school because, per doctor's orders, she was not allowed to leave the house if the tempurature was below a certain level. The final modifications were to give her an accelerated program because, even with her disabilities, her learning level was a grade or two higher than her typical peers.

As for my nephew, he was injured in a accident. He had severe head trauma and serious damage to his short term memory. He actually had the modification that supplies needed for each class (including pen and paper) were to be kept in each class because his head injury made it physically impossible to remember which items were needed for each class. Once he was provided with the supplies at the begining of class, he was perfectly capable of learing the material at grade level.

I, myself, had a note in my school file for preferential seating because I have a hearing loss in my right ear. At times, there were people that felt that I should not be allowed to attend a regular classroom because of my hearing loss even though I did not need any accomodation other than my seating. I was allowed to stay in regular classroom because testing showed that not only was I able to perform at grade level, I actually tested high enough to be considered for double promotions.

However, I do agree that there are problems with IEPs. I feel that they are often too vauge. An IEP should not state that the teacher wil provide the student with pen and paper. It should state that the teacher will allow the student to store parent provided school supplies in the classroom and will give the child access to those supplies at the begining of each class. The IEP should not state "preferentail seating". It should state exactly where the student needs to be placed in the class, either in relation to the teacher, or the board and why. For example, in my case, it was state that I need to be seated to the right side of the room so that when the teacher was lecturing at the front of the class, the ear that I have the most hearing in was closest to the teacher. I do not believe that an IEP should ever state that a student must receive a certain grade. If the student is in a regular classroom, then they should be heald to the same grading standard as long as they are being allowed to use the modifications they need to make it possible for them to take the test - such as a well defined amount of extra time, or a verbal test for students with reading difficulties such as dislexia, or having a supply of pencils in the classroom for the student who is physically unable to remember to bring them to class.

These are just my thoughts on the matter as a person who knows people with disabilities, has some of her own and have a close friend who is a special education teacher who deals with IEPs all the time.

[Unregistered]

wow. obviously, you have no clue what the uniform public school system is like for a child with an LD.
I feel sorry for any student unfortunate enough to have a teacher that wants them to fail.
I pity you.

[Unregistered]

I am a teacher as well and I would be ashamed to post something like that. I really pity you. What a sad person you must be. Perhaps you need to find a new profession in which you do not have to work with people, ESPECIALLY children. Does your school have a social worker or psychologist? I suggest you set up an appointment with him/her.

[Unregistered]

Now I know we're in trouble. Learn how to spell accommodations!!! These poor kids!!!!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Now I know we're in trouble. Learn how to spell accommodations!!! These poor kids!!!!


says the person who doesn't know the difference between your and you are

[Unregistered]

CNO:
Is that really you in the picture?

[Mr. H]

OOOOOOOOOHhhhhh oooooooohhhhh, looks like you've an admirer... Teachnology crushes, how cute.

[Unregistered]

No way, I am way more attracted to anti-war frenchies!!!
Actually, I'd rather eat glass.

[Mr. H]

Well, I am against war, in general. I only wish more people around the world were as well. I am against using money that should go to education being funneled into war.

PS. bon appétit

[Unregistered]

And a better idea would be to wait for another attack? You truly are a frenchy!

[Unregistered]

Oh and before you jump all over me with the classic liberal line "Iraq did not attack us" please be advised, I already am aware of the facts.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

OOOOOOOOOHhhhhh oooooooohhhhh, looks like you've an admirer... Teachnology crushes, how cute.

one of many people who have e-crushes on Sexual Chocolate

[Mr. H]

And a better idea would be to wait for another attack? You truly are a frenchy!

...and you're a reactionary militant. Calm down a second.

Oh and before you jump all over me with the classic liberal line "Iraq did not attack us" please be advised, I already am aware of the facts.

Ok, where did you get this idea that I am for terrorism?? I agree that something needed to be done to protect our country, I merely question the motives behind our actions. I imagine that we should always reflect and question our motives in every military situation as it has the potential to make things worse... I am just tired of hearing that every month more and more of our people are being killed. I'm not proposing that we pull them all out. I just wonder what could have been done differently, as is my right.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

what's funny, is even though I agree with unregistered's politics, he/she is still an idiot who needs to know that I am not available

[Unregistered]

Oh bummer.....morons with low IQ's are my absolute favorite!

[bioteach200]

Look back to my "must provide school supplies" accomodation.

I once had 2 SPED students that had in thier IEP that their SPED teacher would bring thier book, notebook and assignment to class FOR THEM everyday...these 2 kids in questions were Juniors in High School!!! I dealt with it until the SPED teacher had in issue that she was dealing with in her room and the 2 kids came to my class with nothing. I told them to go and get thier stuff after realizing that their SPED teacher wasn't probably going to make it. One of them said, "But Mrs. T brings our stuff FOR us..." and then proceeded to high five the other kid.

I held my tongue from saying, "Does she wipe for you too?"....instead I told them to impress her by going and getting everything you need for class all by yourself.

I told her about the high five incident, and we had a meeting with the parents and modified the IEP.


I have quite a few ADD/ADHD students as well...and it can get frustrating. But thankfully I have a GREAT SPED department at my school and they say, "One strike and you're out" as far as behavior issues are concerened...they prefer that you send them to the 'Resource Room' so they can deal with them. It IS nice--although I do try to deal with it in my classroom first...then if it becomes too much of a distraction- I send them down.

I wonder what those 2 kids are up to now...they graduated 2 years ago.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I wonder what those 2 kids are up to now...they graduated 2 years ago.


probably sitting at home expecting to get paid by the govt for being unemployed (and probably getting it).

ESE classrooms breed welfare recipients of tomorrow

[bioteach200]

My guess would still be living at home...:rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

Chocolate,

You must have me mixed up with someone else. My son has Autism. I expect and demand his IEP be followed. It is a legal document to protect his rights to a free and appropriate education. I never said anything about retaking a test over and over again until he passes. That is not what an IEP is for. It's for trying to reach objectives and goals a certain percentage of times. If not met then we take a step back and try something else. I have never failed my son. How dare you assume you know me or my son. My son graduated this year. He did not pass the exit exam and did not get a diploma. Since he has Autism he is in a life skills program under the school district until he is 21 therefore he is still eligible to take the exam exam twice a year. This fall he passed the math part and was 1 point away from passing the reading and 3 points for passing the writing. Now you compare that when he was about 7 years old and could hardly form a sentence, could not write, could not dress himself, would have meltdowns from hell and I would say he has come a long ways. He loves Shakespeare. His favorite movies is to Kill a Mocking Bird, 12 Angry Men, Hamlet etc...

I contribute his success to myself and my husband, advocating and all the great teachers that have been in his life. When he graduated and walked he even had teachers from elementary school come to watch him graduate.

His teachers reached him. They all loved him even the PE teacher after some understanding came to like having him in his class. I have the utmost respect for teachers especially the ones I have encountered. I am just thanking God you were not one of them. You are a mean and hateful person. I have read many of your posts and have decided after this response I will not waste my time on you anymore. You are not worth it.

JMom,
I was so moved by your post. I teach children like your son every day on the elementary level. I am a certified ESE teacher, helping design IEP goals that will best help children learn necessary skills to succeed in life. I have no interest in simply passing the child on, but nor do I want to keep them in third grade again and again until they can function on a third grade level (it may be years before some children can so that!) I am thrilled that your son has grown up and has done so well on his exit exam, and learned to appreciate such classics as Shakespeare... It makes me dream about what some of my students will one day grow up to be.

I am a new ESE teacher, have only been teaching for 1 1/2 years, and I am moved and inspired by my job to help my children learn and succeed. I feel that I am given a special task in life to help these kids and that my life has purpose.

I have only discovered this forum this morning, unfortunately, because Chocolate wrote something so offensive my jaw dropped and then I got stuck on here. I look forward to registering and using this forum to help me become a better teacher and think of new ways to help my students.

Like you, I've decided to get back "on task" and use this site for my benefit, rather than replying to an angry old teacher who uses his time to slight and cheat ESE students. I sincerely feel for his students, and while I will agree that some of those accomodations might be better written, I think he should take that up with his school and the ESE teachers in a professional way that would benefit him and his students.

Chocolate, you are not worth the time to reply to when you fuss about this topic. I hope when I begin posting and looking for educational ideas you will not interfere by writing more hurtful things about my job or my wonderful students.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

great :D:D:D

another teacher registering to put me in my place. :rolleyes: You will register, post for about a month, then never resurface again

My ESE background is up there. I was certified ESE (until I dropped that certification to get into Social Studies) However, I teach more ESE kids now than I did when I had full inclusion. I minored in it and used ESE to be able to get my foot in the door at my district. You see, no one wants to teach it. I knew that. So I applied and was hired for the first job I ever applied. I worked SPED for 3 years, got my tenure, and then moved to my current position in Social Studies at the school I plan to retire from.

So, my opinions, have all been made up by my experiences, not pulled from my butt.

But have fun trying to prove I'm wrong. You can join YUH8Me, Stuteacher and all the other no named Unregistered's that have tried.

[SunshineSkate]

Hello again. I registered because I just found this forum today and I know I can learn a lot of useful tricks to help reach students. I don't care about putting you in your place. I understand you are frustrated by some of the kids in your class....No doubt, most are probably SLD, and a lot are kids that some people just don't know what to do with. I can see why you are frustrated.

I seriously doubt you have any autistic or EMH kids. They would give you a different perspective on these kids who are you are classifying as 'lazy'. For the record, dyslexic kids, most austistic kids, especially those on the who are just on the spectrum, and EMH kids don't drool out the side of their mouths. But they still struggle with academics and need their teachers to help them and care for them.

I was deeply offended by your comments because they were so hateful and directed at everyone who teaches ESE. I would expect someone in your job to be a little more sensitive. And for the record, three years of teaching ESE to get your foot in the door falls under 'limited experience.' You're not exactly a pro, nor do you have a lot of experience working with varying exceptionalities.

I hope you will consider leaving teaching soon because your ESE situation will probably only get worse. I will not reply to any more of your posts and I refuse to get incensed by anything hurtful you write because I am on this forum to learn, and this is truly wasting my time.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Hello again. I registered because I just found this forum today and I know I can learn a lot of useful tricks to help reach students. I don't care about putting you in your place. I understand you are frustrated by some of the kids in your class....No doubt, most are probably SLD, and a lot are kids that some people just don't know what to do with. I can see why you are frustrated.

I seriously doubt you have any autistic or EMH kids. They would give you a different perspective on these kids who are you are classifying as 'lazy'. For the record, dyslexic kids, most austistic kids, especially those on the who are just on the spectrum, and EMH kids don't drool out the side of their mouths. But they still struggle with academics and need their teachers to help them and care for them.

I was deeply offended by your comments because they were so hateful and directed at everyone who teaches ESE. I would expect someone in your job to be a little more sensitive. And for the record, three years of teaching ESE to get your foot in the door falls under 'limited experience.' You're not exactly a pro, nor do you have a lot of experience working with varying exceptionalities.

I hope you will consider leaving teaching soon because your ESE situation will probably only get worse. I will not reply to any more of your posts and I refuse to get incensed by anything hurtful you write because I am on this forum to learn, and this is truly wasting my time.

I don't care what the label is, if they can't handle my work, they don't need to be in my class.

Autistic, EMH, have seperate classes deservedly. However, me not having them is EXACTLY why I am so agrevated with the system. ADHD is not a disability that entitles one to having the teacher give them paper and pencil everyday. ADHD is not a disability that should allow the kid a mulligan if he completely disrupts the educational process EVERYDAY. I do not have time to babysit.

I have, however, have taught EVERY imaginable label there was though. In the real world, they shape up or they flip burgers for life. The sooner they learn that (kids AND parents) the better.


Stick around though, I doubt you will, however.

[Unregistered]

Hey Chocolate,

You post the same topics but on different days. This is at least the third time I have read about your refusal to follow students' IEPs. Please come up with a new topic already! How repetative!!!!

[Unregistered]

This is so on the MONEY in so many ways. When is everyone going to recognize that having the ESE students who TRULY does NOT care about learning affects EVERYONE else in the class including the ESE students that DO want TO LEARN.

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between a child that CAN'T LEARN and one that DOES NOT WANT TO. I have students that have TRUE difficulties learning and DO need a teacher to help them and make accomodations to help them learn, but these are NOT the ones that come UN PREPARED TO CLASS and are BEHAVIORAL ISSUES. They want to learn and YES they do need things rephrased several times and DO need extra time to finish assignments BUT THEY ARE DOING THEM.

BUT then there are the OTHERS, that also have diabilities no doubt, BUT AREN'T WILLING to TRY to LEARN. Every day is a workout trying to get them to BEHAVE (ok, to SHUT UP AND LISTEN) because THEY KNOW they can get AWAY with it. AREN'T we taking the LEARNING away from the rest?????

I find Chocolate to be BRUTAL but TRUTHFUL. Unfortunately!

By the way I am a FIRST TIME Teacher in a RESOURCE (pull out) classroom enviroment. I want to HELP and TEACH Everyone..... but I am finding that to be a Fairy tale.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

how unrealistic of an accomodation would the following be?

"must provide student with a teacher's edition book"

or

"must provide an answer key to tests"



I honestly don't think it's going to be long. After all, I'm already been required to provide school supplies on IEP's


Give an inch, they take a mile.... is a saying that rings so true in reference to SPED education.

[Unregistered]

you are a very bad teacher, you remind me of my childs teacher, she has a iep and it states that the teacher will write down homework and make sure it gets into her bag. teacher says that my child is too old for that kind of help. I am suing the school and teacher.







another teacher registering to put me in my place. :rolleyes: You will register, post for about a month, then never resurface again

My ESE background is up there. I was certified ESE (until I dropped that certification to get into Social Studies) However, I teach more ESE kids now than I did when I had full inclusion. I minored in it and used ESE to be able to get my foot in the door at my district. You see, no one wants to teach it. I knew that. So I applied and was hired for the first job I ever applied. I worked SPED for 3 years, got my tenure, and then moved to my current position in Social Studies at the school I plan to retire from.

So, my opinions, have all been made up by my experiences, not pulled from my butt.

But have fun trying to prove I'm wrong. You can join YUH8Me, Stuteacher and all the other no named Unregistered's that have tried.[/QUOTE]

[Unregistered]

Why do you need to hurt these kids? What did they do to you? I hope you lose you job.. I grew up with a iep, I have 3 kids with ieps. The kids you teach need your help, not you underminding them. I have to fight tooth and nail to get my kids teachers to follow their ieps, and I also have to help my child undestand that it is the teachers not them. She comes home crying everyday because of the teacher is like you. She ask for help and is punshied. She is put in the back of the room away from everyone, what ae you telling the child, and the other students. I have to pop in to make sure it stops, it is against the the where I live to put a child in the back away from everyone. I hope you are fired and sued.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

you are a very bad teacher, you remind me of my childs teacher, she has a iep and it states that the teacher will write down homework and make sure it gets into her bag. teacher says that my child is too old for that kind of help. I am suing the school and teacher.

So is the teacher also required to help your child wipe his/her butt? Zip up? That is right up there with 'world's stupidest accomodations' I have seen (and I was the one that had the "provide pencil and paper" )

your child IS too old for that. But I suppose, you'll figure this all out when your child is still living at home at 35 ;)

[Unregistered]

You are a **************** HEAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you should be fired ! You arrogant shmuck!QUOTE=Chocolate_New_Orleans;16214]or at the very least, interpret them to my advantage since I do know that refusal to follow can cost me my job...

For example...

No lie, I had an IEP that was inherited from the previous year, (therefore, I had no way to put up a stink about it when they wrote it), that said the teacher must provide a pen/pencil and paper for the child. That is complete horse crap and any ESE teacher that tries to write crap like that into an IEP will hear it from me in a conference and I WILL NOT sign it. It cheapens any real accomodation that the student may have, plus, as I often point out to my students who ask for school supplies from me, "I only have 1 student at my school that I supply pen/pencil and paper to, and she has my last name"

So, since I realized that I couldn't 'ignore' the accomodation, I interpretted it the way that got the point through to every idiot that signed that they approved that stupid accomodation.

I provided pen/paper and pencil everyday, to 'John'.... at the end of the period and I explained, "here is your supplies tomorrow, you must bring that to class tomorrow"

John's next question was "can I keep it in your class until tomorrow?"

to which I would reply

"No" and the reason, which I wouldn't say to him was that they need to write into that accomodation the next time they renew it, exactly WHEN I have to provide him supplies for the day. That way, while I'm sitting in the IEP renewal, I can say, in no uncertain terms, "I refuse to sign any accomodation that says I have to supply 'John' with school supplies.

Plus, even if they circumvent me and get some random "regular ed" teacher to sign knowing they won't look at what they sign, it won't matter as "john" won't be my problem next year as he will be 1 grade up, or at the very least, on the other team.


And the great thing about IEP's is I can interpret all accomodations I don't agree with the same way.

Other examples are
1. preferential seating - I prefer to have them sit wherever I want them to.
2. Must be allowed to retest until desired grade is achieved (another favorite of mine) - I allow re-takes as long as you meet these requirements (and then I make those requirements unachievable) I don't retest ANYONE. Or I will say, "to retest, you must make an appointment, at 7 am to retest" And when they say "I can't make it then", I'll say, I can't do it during class, or afterschool either due to teaching and coaching, so it's before school or nothing"

3. not really an IEP accomodation, but ESE teachers are dead set against homework grades, or counting daily work since they beleive that an ESE grade should be based on tests only. Instead, I call homework, an open-book test that they do once a week, at home (to allow for all the time they need to complete it, of course ;) ).

I combine everything into a test grade. All notebooks = 1 test. All homework = 1 test, all daily work = 1 test[/QUOTE]

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

very intelligent comeback. :rolleyes:

any particular reasons you think I should be fired?

[Unregistered]

I am not a fan of Mr. Choc., but if we cool down and think he does make a couple of valid points. First, I do not profess to be any kind of expert in IEP's. Being as I teach kindergarten, I have only seen a handful over the years. One of Mr. Choc.'s point was--What keeps the teacher writing the IEP in check? One year I did have a child come to me with a four page IEP. I think it was written in about a 10 font, and every space was filled. I had 23 (no aide) other students to tend, and many of them were just as needy, but didn't have an IEP. Another year a child came to me needing special technology services, this was probably in 14 years ago. I didn't know up from down on a computer, let alone "special technology services." I was told to have it available to the child by the next day. I am always willing to do whatever I can to help a student, but sometimes they demand simply more than one person can achieve.
The second point Mr. Choc. made was that industry will not make all these accommodations for their workers. Achieve or leave. I liked the typing analogy. Once again, I will do whatever I can to help a child succeed, but the world is not so forgiving.
To those of you who have experienced teachers that simply won't try--my sympathies. Your child deserves better, but so often the buck is passed down and down and down to the teacher. Pretty soon the teacher has the weight of all the bucks, and as I said before there is only so much one teacher can do.

[musicllover]

I am not a fan of Mr. Choc., but if we cool down and think he does make a couple of valid points. First, I do not profess to be any kind of expert in IEP's. Being as I teach kindergarten, I have only seen a handful over the years. One of Mr. Choc.'s point was--What keeps the teacher writing the IEP in check? One year I did have a child come to me with a four page IEP. I think it was written in about a 10 font, and every space was filled. I had 23 (no aide) other students to tend, and many of them were just as needy, but didn't have an IEP. Another year a child came to me needing special technology services, this was probably in 14 years ago. I didn't know up from down on a computer, let alone "special technology services." I was told to have it available to the child by the next day. I am always willing to do whatever I can to help a student, but sometimes they demand simply more than one person can achieve.
The second point Mr. Choc. made was that industry will not make all these accommodations for their workers. Achieve or leave. I liked the typing analogy. Once again, I will do whatever I can to help a child succeed, but the world is not so forgiving.
To those of you who have experienced teachers that simply won't try--my sympathies. Your child deserves better, but so often the buck is passed down and down and down to the teacher. Pretty soon the teacher has the weight of all the bucks, and as I said before there is only so much one teacher can do.

The IEP's that the state I live in is more like 14 pages, not mentioning the psychological evaluation maybe 15 page document, observation reports, teacher reports. The safe guards and procedures page is another 10 pages that thankfully the state provided. There is SO much more to writing an IEP than the gen. ed teacher knows about unless they have been a part of the process at some point. I understand how hard it is to meet the needs of an IEP student when you have a room full of students with different needs. But, some student NEED IEP's, what about the mental retardation, or physical disabilities that must be understood. The IEP can also be seen as a help to the teacher, it give a diagnosis, NOT to label a student, but something a teacher can use to help them understand how to work with that student. A Mentally Retarded student may look the same as any other student, but they learn at a much slower pace, the IEP keeps teachers from penalizing that student for something that isn't his/her fault, its just they way they were born.
One of the oldest arguments I've heard is, Just how are accommodations going to help a student in the real world..? Well duh the same as any student's education going to help them in the real world? People, use what they can and do what they can. Good grief its not like we have schools full of brain surgeons anyway. We have every class and style of learners, some will do very well, other will do OK, still some of the honor students will fail. We do the best we can for all of our students, or should.
I don't fly a plane, I'm not a dentist... and neither are most of the IEP students I work with everyday going to be either. If we are all honest with ourselves we each make accommodations based on what we know we can do and what we are best at. IT isn't going to be any different for the IEP student.
In the real world, IF a child has a true learning disability, they probably won't be in a job that is going to require what they struggled with at school, you aren't going to find an LD adult who struggles to read writing for a news paper etc etc....unless somewhere along the line they could overcome that disability. So accommodations help the student learn to function at their level, they eventually learn to know what they can and can't do.
Some want to make the IEP the bad guy, when it can also be seen as a way of helping the teacher. What would it be like if we didn't have the IEP and teacher were left to make all the decisions for a special needs student on their own, and still teach their whole class?

musicllover

[Unregistered]

The IEP's that the state I live in is more like 14 pages, not mentioning the psychological evaluation maybe 15 page document, observation reports, teacher reports. The safe guards and procedures page is another 10 pages that thankfully the state provided. There is SO much more to writing an IEP than the gen. ed teacher knows about unless they have been a part of the process at some point. I understand how hard it is to meet the needs of an IEP student when you have a room full of students with different needs. But, some student NEED IEP's, what about the mental retardation, or physical disabilities that must be understood. The IEP can also be seen as a help to the teacher, it give a diagnosis, NOT to label a student, but something a teacher can use to help them understand how to work with that student. A Mentally Retarded student may look the same as any other student, but they learn at a much slower pace, the IEP keeps teachers from penalizing that student for something that isn't his/her fault, its just they way they were born.
One of the oldest arguments I've heard is, Just how are accommodations going to help a student in the real world..? Well duh the same as any student's education going to help them in the real world? People, use what they can and do what they can. Good grief its not like we have schools full of brain surgeons anyway. We have every class and style of learners, some will do very well, other will do OK, still some of the honor students will fail. We do the best we can for all of our students, or should.
I don't fly a plane, I'm not a dentist... and neither are most of the IEP students I work with everyday going to be either. If we are all honest with ourselves we each make accommodations based on what we know we can do and what we are best at. IT isn't going to be any different for the IEP student.
In the real world, IF a child has a true learning disability, they probably won't be in a job that is going to require what they struggled with at school, you aren't going to find an LD adult who struggles to read writing for a news paper etc etc....unless somewhere along the line they could overcome that disability. So accommodations help the student learn to function at their level, they eventually learn to know what they can and can't do.
Some want to make the IEP the bad guy, when it can also be seen as a way of helping the teacher. What would it be like if we didn't have the IEP and teacher were left to make all the decisions for a special needs student on their own, and still teach their whole class?

musicllover

musiclover,
I clearly said in my posting that I did not know a whole lot about IEP's, so I appreciate the information you gave me. In writing these posts it is so hard to include everything one thinks, and, of course, the reader does not know the emotion the writer puts into the post. Having said that, I want to make it clear, I work, and work, and work to help every child in my class be successful. It is not an option for me to ignore a child and their needs. I will leave it at that. Once again, thank you for the information.

[musicllover]

musiclover,
I clearly said in my posting that I did not know a whole lot about IEP's, so I appreciate the information you gave me. In writing these posts it is so hard to include everything one thinks, and, of course, the reader does not know the emotion the writer puts into the post. Having said that, I want to make it clear, I work, and work, and work to help every child in my class be successful. It is not an option for me to ignore a child and their needs. I will leave it at that. Once again, thank you for the information.

I didn't mean anything by my post, sorry if it sound like I was being critical. After reading your post it reminded me of how an IEP can be used for the benefit of our students and even though most of the time a gen ed. teacher feels burdened, the IEP can also be seen the other way, kinda like seeing a glass half full or half empty. Once again I didn't intend to be critical of anything you posted. Sorry,
musicllover

[Unregistered]

Quoting:
"Again, this sounds more than fair. :Preferential: is defined as – “A practical advantage given to one over others.” So, perhaps a seat towards the back, middle, or side is better for this student…not just a front row seat. I have 7 students with IEPs in one of my blocks. Every single one of them has “preferential seating” on their IEP. And just like ChNO, I don’t have 7 front row seats. So…I ‘prefer’ to pair them with higher-achieving students – students who not only can do their work, but are able to assist their partner is doing the work."
end of quote

You both claim to know a little about ESE but if you did you would understand that preferential seating DOES NOT just refer to the front of the room. It means to provide a place where the student can get the most out of your instruction (which means that in your example the "pairing" is preferential because it helps those particular students.) And yes, I guess that would make it open to interpretion, but most good teachers will use their interpretation of what is BEST FOR THE FREAKIN STUDENTS!!

Ms. Mahoney

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Quoting:
"Again, this sounds more than fair. :Preferential: is defined as – “A practical advantage given to one over others.” So, perhaps a seat towards the back, middle, or side is better for this student…not just a front row seat. I have 7 students with IEPs in one of my blocks. Every single one of them has “preferential seating” on their IEP. And just like ChNO, I don’t have 7 front row seats. So…I ‘prefer’ to pair them with higher-achieving students – students who not only can do their work, but are able to assist their partner is doing the work."
end of quote

You both claim to know a little about ESE but if you did you would understand that preferential seating DOES NOT just refer to the front of the room. It means to provide a place where the student can get the most out of your instruction (which means that in your example the "pairing" is preferential because it helps those particular students.) And yes, I guess that would make it open to interpretion, but most good teachers will use their interpretation of what is BEST FOR THE FREAKIN STUDENTS!!

Ms. Mahoney

I also have to keep in mind what's best for the 29 other students in the class when I consider what's in student's best interest. Pretending the world revolves around the 1 who demands the most attention is not what IEPs are for

[Unregistered]

Chocolate displays oppositional defiant behavior,
lack of regard to authoritative figures,
and overinflated sense of self,
fixation and obsession with a single IEP,
Has problems with appropriate social interaction,
Feels a need to vent in one way conversations,
Prone to tantrum and tirade. Lacks empathy, or
what is termed "Theory of Mind", the ability to
relate to others. Has a strong need to remain in
control of his environment. These schizoid disorders,
are not unlike some of the Asperger or Auties, that
I work with as a ST. Maybe, Choc needs
an age appropriate Behavior Support Plan of his own.
Also may be suffering from PTSD after the Orleans flood.


HERE HERE!!

Miss Mahoney,
NBCT and an LD (the kids you are really talking about) teacher

(and by the way I don't let my students get away with anything and as a matter of fact I require MORE from them than regular ed students because their disability means they have to work harder. Personal responsibility is often lacking in kids these days and I aim to teach it to them. But sometimes they need support and accomodations too, you jerk. Every kid is different and some need HELP learning to be responsible.)

[Unregistered]

I also have to keep in mind what's best for the 29 other students in the class when I consider what's in student's best interest. Pretending the world revolves around the 1 who demands the most attention is not what IEPs are for

You are exactly right. As a teacher you need to consider what is best for ALL the students in your class, including those with IEPs. There are teachers who do this successfully without b*tching about it all the time. Kudos to them.
That said, teachers are just people and I'm sure there are some rotten ESE teachers out there, too. But it is sad that you take their incompetence in writing IEPs out on your students. You are obviously a small little man who gets enjoyment out of being "right" at the detrement to children. Certainly not one who needs to be a teacher.

Miss Mahoney

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

So since I have to take in account ALL the class, why am I being forced to bend over backwards, for ADHD bobby at the expense of Regular ed Joey?

If time wasn't a finite resource, this wouldn't be a problem. But when 20 minutes of class is spend accomodating for 1 kid is rediculous because it's always at the expense of the other 29.

[musicllover]

You are exactly right. As a teacher you need to consider what is best for ALL the students in your class, including those with IEPs. There are teachers who do this successfully without b*tching about it all the time. Kudos to them.
That said, teachers are just people and I'm sure there are some rotten ESE teachers out there, too. But it is sad that you take their incompetence in writing IEPs out on your students. You are obviously a small little man who gets enjoyment out of being "right" at the detrement to children. Certainly not one who needs to be a teacher.

Miss Mahoney

"As a teacher you need to consider what is best for all..." That is the pivotal point for our Mr New Orleans. I have yet to see or read anything that proves New Orleans is a teacher. I wonder if possible he could be a troll, the kind that likes to join message board to be a trouble maker, he calls himself a teacher but hasn't proven it by his words. So far what I've seen is someone who doesn't care, who has no heart to teach and uses the time in the classroom to complain and b**ch about an IEP that he doesn't follow. He uses the students to feed his own ego, if he is a teacher then he is a teacher on a power trip. I've asked several times for suggestions on how to fix the problems with IEP's and mainstream teachers and all I get is more complaining. I wish there were something we could do to spare the children from this kind of prejudice and bigotry, cause those of us, who are real teacher, would like to be a part of the solution not a part of the problem. YES, teacher are just people and yes we make mistakes, if the IEP isn't working it can be fixed, another IEP team meeting and suggestions given, a change of action and its done, more work for me but I'll do it for my students. ALL the teacher involved in a students education need to have a say but if they don't come to the meeting or at least talk with the SPED teacher then they shouldn't complain. Still, I have a feeling, even if a perfect IEP came to MR New Orleans he'll still find something to complain about because he likes the sound of his own voice.
musicllover

[musicllover]

Oh boy, here we go!



An aside to JMOM and the various Unregisterds out there: Before you proceed, you should know that I worked in the Special Education dept. of my district for 4 years before moving on to a regular classroom posting, so I am intimately familiar with IEP and 504 and IDEA rules. I understand a parent’s instinct to fight for their children.

Having said that, and at the risk of…oh the heck with it.
Sorry, Unregistered, but I’m on Chocolate’s side on this one. He’s right – it’s all in the interpretation of the paperwork. Way back when, ChNO said:



That sounds more than fair to me. The requirement of the IEP is being followed, AND the student is even being given extra time to prepare for the retest. As a teacher, one would hope that the parents are also assisting the student in preparing for the retest. I know that even the most vocal of parents are not always capable of following along with their student’s class-work/homework. So…that leaves the teacher, tutors, classroom aides, and other school resources, to help the student prepare. Why aren’t they being held to the “spirit” of the IEP?

ChNO also said:



Again, this sounds more than fair. :Preferential: is defined as – “A practical advantage given to one over others.” So, perhaps a seat towards the back, middle, or side is better for this student…not just a front row seat. I have 7 students with IEPs in one of my blocks. Every single one of them has “preferential seating” on their IEP. And just like ChNO, I don’t have 7 front row seats. So…I ‘prefer’ to pair them with higher-achieving students – students who not only can do their work, but are able to assist their partner is doing the work.

As for the pencil and paper issue, well…every single student was given a course syllabus at the beginning of the year. In fact, we just reviewed it the day we returned after Christmas Break. It clearly states that all students must come to school prepared. That includes all supplies that will be needed to perform well – pencils, pens, paper, erasers…you get the picture. Personally, I would question any IEP that requires me OR the school to provide these basic school supplies. This responsibility lies strictly with the family.

IEPs are intended to help students who have learning difficulties perform better. If they discuss seating, additional time to complete assignments, basic modifications to tests or quizzes, I’m all for that. They should not be about who provides something to write with.

And that’s my buck and two cents!
BDT


Big Daddy, stated "...you should know that I worked in the Special Education dept. of my district for 4 years before moving on to a regular classroom posting..." Chocolate New Orleans worked a grand total of 3 years in Special Ed....May I ask How long ago? I also suggest that if you did work in SPED, then you would also know compliance laws change every year. Simply because you ONCE worked in Special Ed doesn't mean anything, I've worked in Special Ed for nearly 11 years, (4 in college) this is my first year as a "teacher," and the laws even the IEP's are different than it was a few years ago. New laws, new interpretations whatever it is, you can't claim to know it all simply because you work in SPED once. Special Ed is ever evolving and changing. So are the diagnosis, ten years ago autism was beginning to show up increasingly, now its like every child is autistic, or Oppositional Defiance disorder, that kind of behavior would have gotten some students a spanking, now if you even think about it you could be sued. With the ever changing laws and problems. real or otherwise. so do the needs of the students. If the IEP gives the accommodation to give the student paper and pencil maybe its because the student has a true medical problem that we do not know about except through the very tainted and biased opinion of someone who wants to play teacher? I don't know, what I do know is I want to make sure my students needs are met, not to make them lazy, but to truly help them learn. WHY does providing a student with one piece of stupid paper and a pencil or giving him a seat in the front row create such a fuss....provide the blasting things and then take the pencil back for the next day, let other student (who probably don't care) know that the seat in the front row is for so and so. Why don't we pick our battles, when we have students getting pregnant, abuse, drugs, broken homes, blah blah blah...I can't believe the fuss some are making about ONE accommodation, when we honestly don't know why it was made. Mental Retardation, autism, Traumatic brain injury, to name a few could be reasons that paper, pencil or preferred seating is necessary. We also have other teachers involved, do they provide these things, or is this JUST for Social Studies? IF so I have to ask myself why? If all the teacher felt this was making the student lazy then all teacher need to ask for a IEP team meeting and have it changed. Gen ed teacher aren't powerless, but they do need to follow the correct order to have the IEP amended. SO explain to the parent to provide the necessary articles, what is stopping you? Why not simply follow the IEP and pick your battles for more important things.
I also remind those who appose the IEP's, I've asked for suggestions on how to make this better, and get nothing back or get rude assumptions. WHAT would you do with the special needs student? What or how would you handle it? With a grand total of 7 years of OLD Sped experience, and several gen ed experience between New Orleans and Big Daddy, what do you honestly and fairly suggestion we do with the special needs student?
So its time to put up or shut up, cause you can't legally ignore the IEP accommodations. :p
Musicllover

[Unregistered]

Musicllover, you made some excellent points in your latest posts. Now, let's see if Chocolate will reply. I have, in the past, addressed questions to him, i.e. what accomodations do you use, what are your suggestions with children who are "other health impaired" or have obvious health and learning issues, and have never gotten a response. Oh, I believe Chocolate is a teacher. Just one with a very cold heart and quite rebellious it seems. Now, let's wait and see what he can pull out of his butt and reply.

[BigDaddyTeacher]

Musiclover, you raise some interesting points. Let’s begin, shall we?
With regards to my SpEd experience, the four years covered the school years 02/03 – 05/06, so my experience with the laws, reg’s, and such are fairly recent.

I’m not sure that all laws change every year, but the available and acceptable diagnoses definitely increase. As you say, autism and ODD are certainly cropping up more and more in the mainstream schools. At least, that’s what the parents want us to believe.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I realize that children with autism are indeed worthy of an IEP, especially if helps them learn what they need to learn with their peers. And certainly, there are cases where the autism is mild enough to allow that child in a mainstream classroom with a minimum amount of problems. Even the assistance of an aid or an RSP along with that child is a welcome sight. However, a child with major autistic problems, in my opinion, should be serviced in an appropriate setting where he/she can receive more individual assistance from SpEd trained professionals and aids. As Choc says, I can’t see sacrificing my valuable time working with just one child to the detriment of the other 2X kids in the class.

But, let’s discuss ODD – Oppositional defiance disorder. ODD is defined as:
A disturbance of at least six months during which at least five of the following are present;

(1) often loses temper
(2) often argues with adults
(3) often actively defies or refuses adult requests or rules, e.g., refuses to do chores at home
(4) often deliberately does things that annoy other people, e.g., grabs other children's hats
(5) often blames others for his or her own mistakes
(6) is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
(7) is often angry and resentful
(8) is often spiteful or vindictive
(9) often swears or uses obscene language

Based on this definition, I can identify at least 15 of my current students who would be classified as having ODD. However, I know that is not the case. What I probably have is one child that may exhibit signs of this condition, and 14 that are just rude, disruptive little children who want lots of attention OR want to be sent out of the room so they don’t have to learn. So they act out with these behaviors to achieve their ends. And, not one of these 15 has an IEP of any kind…and I guarantee that some of them will be in my room next year, repeating the sixth grade.

As this is getting long, I’ll do a second post to address some of Musiclover’s other points.
BDT

[BigDaddyTeacher]

Hello again. Now, Musiclover also addresses some of the accommodations that we are asked to make, and what battles to join. One of his points was:

If the IEP gives the accommodation to give the student paper and pencil, maybe it’s because the student has a true medical problem that we do not know about except through the very tainted and biased opinion of someone who wants to play teacher.

Indeed. I can’t for the life of me come up with a medical condition that would require me to provide pencil/paper for a student…possibly a familial financial problem, but not a medical one. (Mind you I am not a doctor…but I play one on TV.) I think it’s not so much the idea of providing/loaning these items, but the fact that they are on an IEP – which, if I’m not mistaken, is a document designed to provide educational modifications for students who need a little/lot of extra help in the classroom. Not a document designed to dictate what school supplies are to be given.

You say we should pick our battles. Well, with all the other things I have to do in a classroom – make charts, create entertaining lesson plans, grade homework/tests, attend endless staff meetings, create modified lesson plans/tests for those students with legitimate IEP considerations - remembering to provide a pencil and paper to one student because (for some reason) he/she can’t be expected to come to school prepared every day is a battle I would choose.

Your comment about …I can’t believe the fuss some are making about ONE accommodation, when we honestly don’t know why it was made… is just the reason we ARE making the fuss. Asking for an IEP team meeting to change provisions can be as pleasant as pulling teeth w/o Novocain. I can’t think of one parent I’ve worked with in an IEP meeting that is willing to remove accommodations from an IEP. Have you?

On to part three…
BDT

[BigDaddyTeacher]

(good Lord - won't this guy clam up? :D)

You ask a very important question: What do you honestly and fairly suggest we do with the special needs student?

Well, we’ve got all sorts of exams, assessments, and tests designed to tell us – the teachers, the RSPs, the aids, the SpEd classroom teachers – exactly where a special needs students falls in the realm of their ability to learn: The Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test, the Wood****************-Johnson III assessment, the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale…etc, etc., etc.

These are, IMO, a good start. We really need to know what they know, how they know it, and what they are capable of doing/learning before we place them into any type of category. These need to be done without the parent’s involvement.

Then, the parents become a resource, however biased they might be. Ask them about their little darlings, and they will either: a) give a full and true account of their observations; b) give a partially true and partially ‘augmented’ account of their observations; or c) say what they will to get their child the best possible accommodations in a school setting. In most cases the assessments will weed out the falsehoods.

Once we have that initial IEP meeting, and we review all the information, listen to the parents, observers, psychotherapists, psychiatrists, and other interested parties, the ‘final’ evaluation is made and the child is placed, subject to a review down the line.

Do I want Special needs students in my mainstream classroom? Honestly, I don’t mind…as long as I am able to review their IEP before they arrive; I have assurances that their required RSP will be in the room at the appointed times; and the students can adhere to my classroom rules and do the work they are expected to do (modified, if need be). If they can’t do that, then I expect the school to help move them to a classroom where their individual needs can be met. That seems fair to all involved – the teacher, the student, the family, and the rest of the class.

Thus endeth the lesson.
BDT

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I will chime in here, too.

I have offered suggestions in the past on how to deal with this problem

QUIT WRITING PACIFIER IEPS (IEP's written to make a parent quit complaining) BECAUSE IT RUINS IT FOR THE ONES WHO DO ACTUALLY NEED IEPS!!!!!!11

I have yet to see or read anything that proves New Orleans is a teacher. I wonder if possible he could be a troll, the kind that likes to join message board to be a trouble maker, he calls himself a teacher but hasn't proven it by his words.
Other than posting up the school district I work at, or scan a copy of my W-2, (which I'm not going to do, btw) I suspect you choose to believe I am NOT a teacher, but deep down, you realize a simple troll wouldn't have the background knowledge of the field. Now, had you said, "I don't think CNO is a teacher, or at least, has been run off from the field and is bitter" that would be a little better argument on your part.

But, all I can do is assure you that I am, indeed, a teacher in my 8th year of teaching. 3 of which were in SPED (which you have clearly re-iterated)
Musicllover, you made some excellent points in your latest posts. Now, let's see if Chocolate will reply. I have, in the past, addressed questions to him, i.e. what accomodations do you use, what are your suggestions with children who are "other health impaired" or have obvious health and learning issues, and have never gotten a response. Oh, I believe Chocolate is a teacher. Just one with a very cold heart and quite rebellious it seems. Now, let's wait and see what he can pull out of his butt and reply.Maybe some of you guys need IEP's written to help with your deficiencies in reading comprehension. :rolleyes: I have no problems with legitamate IEP's and have stated that numerous times. My only complaints are for the ones that serve no purpose but to deal with whiny parents for their butt-hole kids who only struggle because they possess the combination of turd personalities with "Helicopter-parents" (oops, another term that your lay-person won't typically know).

My honest suggestion on how to make IEP's better is for teachers to stand up and say "NO, I'm refuse to sign that accomodation because I do not see the need to do xxxxx"

IEP's have quickly changed from a hand up to a hand out. Just like welfare, another program designed with excellent intentions, it has quickly transformed into something that people take advantage of so they don't have to work for anything themselves. But you know what they say about good intentions.... the road to Hell is paved with them. :cool:

[musicllover]

(good Lord - won't this guy clam up? :D)

You ask a very important question:

Well, we’ve got all sorts of exams, assessments, and tests designed to tell us – the teachers, the RSPs, the aids, the SpEd classroom teachers – exactly where a special needs students falls in the realm of their ability to learn: The Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test, the Wood****************-Johnson III assessment, the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale…etc, etc., etc.

These are, IMO, a good start. We really need to know what they know, how they know it, and what they are capable of doing/learning before we place them into any type of category. These need to be done without the parent’s involvement.

Then, the parents become a resource, however biased they might be. Ask them about their little darlings, and they will either: a) give a full and true account of their observations; b) give a partially true and partially ‘augmented’ account of their observations; or c) say what they will to get their child the best possible accommodations in a school setting. In most cases the assessments will weed out the falsehoods.

Once we have that initial IEP meeting, and we review all the information, listen to the parents, observers, psychotherapists, psychiatrists, and other interested parties, the ‘final’ evaluation is made and the child is placed, subject to a review down the line.

Do I want Special needs students in my mainstream classroom? Honestly, I don’t mind…as long as I am able to review their IEP before they arrive; I have assurances that their required RSP will be in the room at the appointed times; and the students can adhere to my classroom rules and do the work they are expected to do (modified, if need be). If they can’t do that, then I expect the school to help move them to a classroom where their individual needs can be met. That seems fair to all involved – the teacher, the student, the family, and the rest of the class.

Thus endeth the lesson.
BDT


Bid Daddy,
Everything you wrote I do, I'm not familiar with how it is done in other states but we don't give a student and IEP by seeing someone in the hallway and thinking GEE I think he/she has a learning problem and tell him to come the resource room for tomorrows classes. Its against the law for me to teach anyone in my room unless they have an IEP. It begins when the Teacher/parent/doctor/ or some other professional makes a referral. I get parents permission to test their child, also have the parents fill out medical and development history, who lives in the home any changes or stresses. I then schedule testing, usually the Wood**************** Johnson, and WISC, I do classroom observation, school nurse does hearing, sight tests, speech path does a speech evaluation. I also do a learning styles survey with the student, a teacher, and the parent's to learn what the students learning style is (part of my brain based classroom). Which I feel is very important for me at the teacher I have a jump start on some strategies that can be implemented. I also get info from the gym teacher about coordination. If the student is a High School student I will talk with my all other teachers, what has been done in the past, and if necessary other tests are done. Finally the IEP team comes together and between the parent, teacher(s), myself and other professionals the parents wished to invite we discuss what the test show if they qualify through low testing and IQ etc etc. We talk about what the students needs and what accommodations and modification would be helpful and why. If the child qualifies for services I don't simply begin throwing work at them, I again do assessments (usually for math and reading) that helps determine the levels they are at, and then base my individual instruction on what they need and how. If they need inclusion I pull them in, or I give a list of accommodation/modification to the teachers. Who most of the time talk as if they understand, it a different story when they have a classroom full of students who have needs of other kinds. I understand that problem, I just don't know how to fix it once the teacher has agreed. I do have a student who isn't able to write clearly enough (autism) in his assignment notebook so that he can do his own homework, the accommodation/mod was for the teacher to write it down in the book for him. Two of the three teacher do, the third even though she agreed to do this at the IE meeting and a staffing meeting a few months later she refuses, saying he is a big boy, and mom needs to "take him off the tit..." That is why I have asked for suggestions, this is a blatant disregard first for the student, and to me as a colleague and teacher. There is a reason we come up with that accommodation, its to help the student nothing more.
I've spoke to the state dept just a few days ago about IE students flunking, can it happen and it was a resounding yet BUT...., IF a student with an IE flunks a class then it has to be documented to show the mod/accom have been followed, and there needs to be another IE meeting to discuss what can be done to help the student get a passing grade. Its not that an IE student can't flunk, they can but it must be documented and the school and I must be able to show the student failed due to his own lack not the teachers lack of instruction or NOT because they failed to do the accom/mod.
So far I agree with what you wrote.

Thus endeth my answer :p
musicllover

[musicllover]

Hello again. Now, Musiclover also addresses some of the accommodations that we are asked to make, and what battles to join. One of his points was:



Indeed. I can’t for the life of me come up with a medical condition that would require me to provide pencil/paper for a student…possibly a familial financial problem, but not a medical one. (Mind you I am not a doctor…but I play one on TV.) I think it’s not so much the idea of providing/loaning these items, but the fact that they are on an IEP – which, if I’m not mistaken, is a document designed to provide educational modifications for students who need a little/lot of extra help in the classroom. Not a document designed to dictate what school supplies are to be given.

You say we should pick our battles. Well, with all the other things I have to do in a classroom – make charts, create entertaining lesson plans, grade homework/tests, attend endless staff meetings, create modified lesson plans/tests for those students with legitimate IEP considerations - remembering to provide a pencil and paper to one student because (for some reason) he/she can’t be expected to come to school prepared every day is a battle I would choose.

Your comment about …I can’t believe the fuss some are making about ONE accommodation, when we honestly don’t know why it was made… is just the reason we ARE making the fuss. Asking for an IEP team meeting to change provisions can be as pleasant as pulling teeth w/o Novocain. I can’t think of one parent I’ve worked with in an IEP meeting that is willing to remove accommodations from an IEP. Have you?

On to part three…
BDT

Big Daddy,
I offered THREE possible diagnoses that could cause a accommodation such as the teacher providing pencil and paper, also I might say that WHO said the teacher pays for these. If the parent provides or some other person why can't they be kept in the necessary classrooms, it not like a a package of paper and one pencil is going to take up a ton of space. BUT back to your being in SPED before, didn't you ever have a Mental Retarded student, autistic, or traumatic brain injury? One of my earlier students could hold a pencil because of injury to himself or others, so I carried it for him. When he become upset he would bit himself he would draw blood so I also had a floater for boats keys that he could bite when he become upset. He was only in the first grade, non verbal, we later found that he could read anything, once that was discovered we could write a note to him, ..... will not bit himself when he is upset, ....
Listen Even if a parent doesn't want to remove an certain accom/mod and the rest of the team agrees it can be done. BUT it has to be done in the right order. Gen ed teacher can't simply decided I dint like this accom/mod anymore and stop doing it. Another meeting must be brought together, and a change of aciton done, a new IEP wrote up a copy to the parents one for the schools files and its done. Honestly if a parent is presented with the reasons why an accom/mod isn't working for that class they have better explain why and get the other to agree because it can be removed for that class only, but that is for the MO. IEP's. I mught suggest highlighter in history class but not another simply because its not necessary. But that is what a working IEP team must decided. Its not a perfect system by any means but it doesn't have to be like pulling teeth either. I want to work with my teachers, I want a good relationship with my students and parents. If it seems like the SpEd teacher is sitting in the middle of the road, we are. We have parents, students, maybe a teacher, a student advocate, their doctors (or his/her report) on one side and on the other we have more teachers, the school board, the state dept. I teach SpEd K-12 so I am bouncing from kindergarten work to high school algebra in a flash. I don't doubt you work hard (I'm not so sure about the teacher want a be.) but so do the SpEd teachers, so lets help each other instead of making it more difficult.
musicllover

[musicllover]

Musicllover, you made some excellent points in your latest posts. Now, let's see if Chocolate will reply. I have, in the past, addressed questions to him, i.e. what accomodations do you use, what are your suggestions with children who are "other health impaired" or have obvious health and learning issues, and have never gotten a response. Oh, I believe Chocolate is a teacher. Just one with a very cold heart and quite rebellious it seems. Now, let's wait and see what he can pull out of his butt and reply.

Unregistered,
Yes, he could be a teacher, on paper anyway, we all have one (a license) BUT is he a teacher? It scares me to think how he treats his students, hopefully he spreads the bull thick here and not in his classroom. I can just see the class syllabus,....arrive on time with text book, paper and pencil. If you come with out paper and a pencil you are a total loser and will be a screw up at everything you go to do in life. Understand, I WILL NOT under any circumstances provide paper, pencils. BUT look on the bight side, I DO damage egos, give low self-esteem, and offer suicidal thoughts daily...

:(
musicllover

[musicllover]

I will chime in here, too.

I have offered suggestions in the past on how to deal with this problem

QUIT WRITING PACIFIER IEPS (IEP's written to make a parent quit complaining) BECAUSE IT RUINS IT FOR THE ONES WHO DO ACTUALLY NEED IEPS!!!!!!11


Other than posting up the school district I work at, or scan a copy of my W-2, (which I'm not going to do, btw) I suspect you choose to believe I am NOT a teacher, but deep down, you realize a simple troll wouldn't have the background knowledge of the field. Now, had you said, "I don't think CNO is a teacher, or at least, has been run off from the field and is bitter" that would be a little better argument on your part.

But, all I can do is assure you that I am, indeed, a teacher in my 8th year of teaching. 3 of which were in SPED (which you have clearly re-iterated)
Maybe some of you guys need IEP's written to help with your deficiencies in reading comprehension. :rolleyes: I have no problems with legitamate IEP's and have stated that numerous times. My only complaints are for the ones that serve no purpose but to deal with whiny parents for their butt-hole kids who only struggle because they possess the combination of turd personalities with "Helicopter-parents" (oops, another term that your lay-person won't typically know).

My honest suggestion on how to make IEP's better is for teachers to stand up and say "NO, I'm refuse to sign that accomodation because I do not see the need to do xxxxx"

IEP's have quickly changed from a hand up to a hand out. Just like welfare, another program designed with excellent intentions, it has quickly transformed into something that people take advantage of so they don't have to work for anything themselves. But you know what they say about good intentions.... the road to Hell is paved with them. :cool:


New Orleans,
I have no problem with believing you are bitter, and in many ways I can understand why, with the stress of how you believe that is very heavy burden to carry. I am sorry, but I can"t offer you much sympathy, if you are as difficult in the classroom as you are here then you face several angry parents, colleagues and school board members everyday. If you are truly walking (running) away from the profession then I say good, it is time to move on. You are qualified to work at something else, preferably not child oriented

I have never said the IE process is perfect, we are all humans and we all make mistakes, some don't like to admit it, while others can't apologize enough for being born. What ever has you so bitter, or hurt, teaching school is not going to help. It is one of the most under payed, unappreciated jobs in the world as far as I am concerned.

I limit myself to hoping I can improve one students life, who knows maybe I might improve a second, but I am NOT super teacher, I am going to do the best I can for my students. If that means I write a lame IEP that you disagree with what am I to do? What do you call a legitimate IEP, who determines that, isn't that my job? Give the SpED teacher a break ok, each situation is different and requires several objectives, accom/mod. Where does this leave me how am I going to do my job if as you said in an earlier post (my paraphrase) some "sap" of a teacher does signs off, but because you didn't sign you don't have to follow the IEP? Instead you will make my life (SpEd teacher's) as miserable as you can because you are a miserable sorry teacher. Its like you want the rest of the world to feel just like you. I guess that is a philosophy I never thought of till now. IF ALL teacher felt like you then you wouldn't have to feel so alone, we would all be burned out and bitter.
I don't know, SO anyway I'll stop play shrink.

What I do suggest is move on, let those of us who has a heart to teach try to do our jobs, you go find something to do that you can find joy in, something that makes you want to get up in the mornings smile and glad to be alive.
I just don't know what to think of you anymore. :confused:
musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Unregistered,
Yes, he could be a teacher, on paper anyway, we all have one (a license) BUT is he a teacher? It scares me to think how he treats his students, hopefully he spreads the bull thick here and not in his classroom. I can just see the class syllabus,....arrive on time with text book, paper and pencil. If you come with out paper and a pencil you are a total loser and will be a screw up at everything you go to do in life. Understand, I WILL NOT under any circumstances provide paper, pencils. BUT look on the bight side, I DO damage egos, give low self-esteem, and offer suicidal thoughts daily...

:(
musicllover


here is my class syllabus

7th Grade Geography

Mr.C-N-O

Welcome back! My name is "Chocolate_New" Orleans" This is my 8th year teaching and my 5th at CNO highschool. I coach football, wrestling and track so you can find me at a lot of places where "New orleans" is. "If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me at " www.teach-nology.com"

With my hours, this will be the easiest way to communicate with me. I look forward to another great year. Below is a list of information and grading policies that I use.

Books: Geography: The World and its People
Price: $50.00 if lost or destroyed
There will be one class set, and a book issued for home use.

Supplies: Students need these supplies everyday, no excuses…
-Three ringed binder
-Paper
-Pencil or pen (blue or black ink only)

Homework: Homework will be assigned the first day of the week, every week. That means Monday usually, but if we are out for a holiday, we will do it the day we return.
10 assignments a grading period that are worth 10 points each. 10 pts x 10 assignments = 100 for a test grade. Late or incomplete assignments are worth 5 points, and assignments not turned in are a 0. Homework is due first thing the next school day.

Notebooks: Students need to get a 3-ringed folder to keep notebook assignments in. Everyday, students will copy and answer questions from the overhead.
This is the studyguide for the Chapter tests. I use test questions and this allows them to have and study before each test.

Dailywork: We do something everyday in class. Repetition and daily practice is important.

Tests: At the end of every chapter and unit, we will have a multiple question test for comprehension. I do not allow re-takes but I do send a studyguide home before that has every possible test question on it. If it’s not on the studyguide, it’s not on the test.








Discipline Procedures:
-If we have any issues with behavior, this is the procedure I will follow.
1st offense: I will correct them.
2nd offense: Parent Alert. This is to be signed by the parent and returned the next day.
3rd offense: Phone call or email home. I will do my best to call and speak to you directly. If I can’t get ahold of anyone, or if my hours don’t permit, I will email you directly and try to get the situation corrected. This is the last chance for the student to correct their behavior before…
4th offense: Discipline referral will be given to an administrator.

-Tardies- We will go over what defines a tardy in class. I am real strict on tardies and will follow the steps below…
Step 1: I will warn them of each tardy.
Step 2: At the 3rd tardy, I will send a Parent alert home to be signed and returned.
Step 3: Discipline referral will be given to an administrator.
but as far as our debate here, you seem to be confusing legit IEP's for illegitamate IEP's. I have no problems following all IEP's, but if it's not legit in my professional opinion, I will follow the letter of the law but I say screw the intent.

[Unregistered]

The syllabus looks fair and to the point to me.
Choc. does seem mad, but read his statements carefully and you will see some truth in them. He has stated clearly in previous threads that an IEP for a child who "truly" needs it does not bother him. He is irritated that those children who are simply not disciplined, or simply lazy, or simple not expected to live up to high standards are getting IEP's. Hopefully, I am not putting words in his mouth.
We are over diagnosing our children these days. Of course, there are students who truly have real issues and need special consideration, but there are a whole lot of students being slapped with labels where there is not a real problem.
I think sometimes the reasonable things Choc. has to say gets all mixed up with all his attitude. I still want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and believe this is his way of letting his frustrations out. One thing no one can deny is teaching has become so stressful that frustrations are inevitable.
Please don't eat me alive for my comments. I am not as tough skinned as Choc.

[Unregistered]

Choc.--go see the site below. It will back up what you are trying to say.
http://behavioral-management.com/category/adhd/

[musicllover]

The syllabus looks fair and to the point to me.
Choc. does seem mad, but read his statements carefully and you will see some truth in them. He has stated clearly in previous threads that an IEP for a child who "truly" needs it does not bother him. He is irritated that those children who are simply not disciplined, or simply lazy, or simple not expected to live up to high standards are getting IEP's. Hopefully, I am not putting words in his mouth.
We are over diagnosing our children these days. Of course, there are students who truly have real issues and need special consideration, but there are a whole lot of students being slapped with labels where there is not a real problem.
I think sometimes the reasonable things Choc. has to say gets all mixed up with all his attitude. I still want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and believe this is his way of letting his frustrations out. One thing no one can deny is teaching has become so stressful that frustrations are inevitable.
Please don't eat me alive for my comments. I am not as tough skinned as Choc.


I totally agree,
Too many labels, and when I have tried to agree with Choc he keeps going on about the stupid accom/mod. I offered my solution but that doesn't seem to break through. No doubt anything reasonable that has said is confused with his attitude, its a little hard to get past sometimes. I have asked for solution or after explaining something and am told to quit teaching, screw the intent, and now making blatant fun of the special needs...well its difficult...but I am a big enough person, I would love to hear any true solutions he offers...

NOW back to something you mention, the over diagnosing of our kids....AMEN and AMEN. That is a big problem, absolutely we have kids who need extra help, always will have. One of the hardest diagnosis is the oppositional defiance disorder...what is wrong with a good old fashion spanking? Most of the kids I know with that disorder are simply spoiled...(not all of them but many of them), I say this with a son who was not diagnosed until he was 16 with ODD, way past the time I could do anything with him. He was disciplined, we fought tooth and nail, he now takes meds to help him. So I've seen both sides of this. Then we have Kids who use the SPED room for a vacation or something and thumb their noses as authority all their lives. What about a kids is labeled and given meds he doesn't need. But what is the teacher to do when a parent walks in with a doc written order for those meds, for OT, PT Speech, and blah blah blah. Then you have another abuse, kids who honestly need help and parents who dint care, then you have parents who push for EVERYthing under the sun. (Just so I don't get blown out of the water by choc. cause I do understand where he is coming from) I was a homebound para from several years. The young man I worked with was diagnosis ed with CP, severely mental retardation, mental age 9 mon when he was 4, he eventually died. He was a from a family of 12 kids, all of whom were home schooled. BUT because of the child's needs the school was made to do homebound work with him. The school payed more for that little boy's needs than they did for any of the sped kids going to the public school. So I DO UNDERSTAND the abuse and some of the crazy stuff, that is what I've been trying to say and why I asked for help. I want ideas to help bring about a possible solution or compromise something to help. Accommodations do not have to be difficult and honestly they shouldn't be hard to follow, do I understand about the GEN ED room, yes I was para their too, my heart is torn between the two rooms. They each have an appeal to me. I have worked with SpED longer but I do miss the more able bodied and minded students sometimes. I get tired of being the dentist pulling teeth to get my students to at least try. Teaching is hard, its not the 8-3 job that is for sure.
I came here looking for answers and suggestions for a place to visit with other teachers...what I got is Choc. and not the kind I like to eat either. :p
musicllover

[Unregistered]

I totally agree,
Too many labels, and when I have tried to agree with Choc he keeps going on about the stupid accom/mod. I offered my solution but that doesn't seem to break through. No doubt anything reasonable that has said is confused with his attitude, its a little hard to get past sometimes. I have asked for solution or after explaining something and am told to quit teaching, screw the intent, and now making blatant fun of the special needs...well its difficult...but I am a big enough person, I would love to hear any true solutions he offers...

NOW back to something you mention, the over diagnosing of our kids....AMEN and AMEN. That is a big problem, absolutely we have kids who need extra help, always will have. One of the hardest diagnosis is the oppositional defiance disorder...what is wrong with a good old fashion spanking? Most of the kids I know with that disorder are simply spoiled...(not all of them but many of them), I say this with a son who was not diagnosed until he was 16 with ODD, way past the time I could do anything with him. He was disciplined, we fought tooth and nail, he now takes meds to help him. So I've seen both sides of this. Then we have Kids who use the SPED room for a vacation or something and thumb their noses as authority all their lives. What about a kids is labeled and given meds he doesn't need. But what is the teacher to do when a parent walks in with a doc written order for those meds, for OT, PT Speech, and blah blah blah. Then you have another abuse, kids who honestly need help and parents who dint care, then you have parents who push for EVERYthing under the sun. (Just so I don't get blown out of the water by choc. cause I do understand where he is coming from) I was a homebound para from several years. The young man I worked with was diagnosis ed with CP, severely mental retardation, mental age 9 mon when he was 4, he eventually died. He was a from a family of 12 kids, all of whom were home schooled. BUT because of the child's needs the school was made to do homebound work with him. The school payed more for that little boy's needs than they did for any of the sped kids going to the public school. So I DO UNDERSTAND the abuse and some of the crazy stuff, that is what I've been trying to say and why I asked for help. I want ideas to help bring about a possible solution or compromise something to help. Accommodations do not have to be difficult and honestly they shouldn't be hard to follow, do I understand about the GEN ED room, yes I was para their too, my heart is torn between the two rooms. They each have an appeal to me. I have worked with SpED longer but I do miss the more able bodied and minded students sometimes. I get tired of being the dentist pulling teeth to get my students to at least try. Teaching is hard, its not the 8-3 job that is for sure.
I came here looking for answers and suggestions for a place to visit with other teachers...what I got is Choc. and not the kind I like to eat either. :p
musicllover


Mr. chol,
you stated my child will be living with me till 35, you must feel so big and bad. I have a child with autism and another with asperger syndrome. THEY NEED IEPS, AND IF THE TEACHERS EVEN TRY TO MAKE THERE OWN INTERPTIONS, THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH ME. I HAVE HAD 2 TEACHERS FIRED FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES. I FEEL YOU SHOULD TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, SO WHAT IF YOU HAD TO PROVID PAPER AND PENCIL, LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPLIES WE HAVE TO PROVIDE TO YOU TEACHERS. CHALK, MARKERS, EARSERS. MY GOD YOU COMPLAIN WAY TO MUCH. I SPENT OVER 100.00 DOLLARS FOR SCHOOL SUPPLIES AND MOST OF IT WAS FOR THE TEACHERS.
YOU ARE A ************!!!!!!!! I THINK YOU SHOULD LEAVE TEACHING. I KNOW YOU WILL BASH ME BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU DO, ANDI JUST WANTED TO ET YOU KNOW IF THAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER GO AHEAD.

[Unregistered]

To all (most) of you Chocolate New Orleans bashers out there-----( allow me to speak for ya, Chocolate), he is not angry or frustrated with the implementation of legitimate and necessary IEPs for those students who do indeed have been truly diagnosed (i.e. Asperger's, autism, mentally handicapped), he is frustrated with using them for students who know the system. Mommy (and if there is a Daddy) knows the system, too--can't discipline him for a myriad of reasons, (all inexcusable)---He has stated this time and again in his posts. If I had the time, i would go back and find them all and list them for you, via quote. Yes, he is copping an attitude, but read his posts carefully.

[Unregistered]

I told him my child had these problems and he joked about it. stated that my child would be living with me till they were 35. I did not find it funny. I also stated that my kids teachers were putting my kids in the far back of the room away from other students, because they ask for help to much, and again he joked. so tell me how i miss understood it.

[Unregistered]

to Musicllover,
I posted #95 and #96. Thank you for your very reasonable reply back. I think we are in agreement on many subjects. That website I posted addresses many issues in education.
I still think Choc. has many good points. I wish he would drop the attitude, so those points could be heard. I do not think he has a problem with legitimate, reasonable IEP's. Fair enough. So much of what he says is said tongue in cheek, and must be taken that way.
Education has become an extremely stressful job. So much is asked of us, that no one can really do any of it really well.
Once again, I appreciate your reply.
Unregistered

[Unregistered]

I told him my child had these problems and he joked about it. stated that my child would be living with me till they were 35. I did not find it funny. I also stated that my kids teachers were putting my kids in the far back of the room away from other students, because they ask for help to much, and again he joked. so tell me how i miss understood it.


It is unfortunate and sad that Choc. joked about this. I did not read his original post, so I can not fully comment.
Try to ignore him. He is not the only one who feels that way, he just voices it. There will always be those with cruel comments.
If you as a parent feel you are doing all that you can for your child then disregard his inappropriate comments.
There is no one perfect way to raise a child. All anyone can do is give it their best shot.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

To all (most) of you Chocolate New Orleans bashers out there-----( allow me to speak for ya, Chocolate), he is not angry or frustrated with the implementation of legitimate and necessary IEPs for those students who do indeed have been truly diagnosed (i.e. Asperger's, autism, mentally handicapped), he is frustrated with using them for students who know the system. Mommy (and if there is a Daddy) knows the system, too--can't discipline him for a myriad of reasons, (all inexcusable)---He has stated this time and again in his posts. If I had the time, i would go back and find them all and list them for you, via quote. Yes, he is copping an attitude, but read his posts carefully.

They don't care to listen to the points, so they find reasons to disregard them by 'becoming offended' over anything.

Well too bad, I say.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Mr. chol,
you stated my child will be living with me till 35, you must feel so big and bad. I have a child with autism and another with asperger syndrome.
wow, a child with aspergers and another one is autistic. Maybe you should quit breeding. You are spreading your bad genetics every time.

THEY NEED IEPS, AND IF THE TEACHERS EVEN TRY TO MAKE THERE OWN INTERPTIONS, THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH ME. I HAVE HAD 2 TEACHERS FIRED FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES.

oh noes, some random internet person making claims they think they never have to back up or think that people can't disprove. :rolleyes:

I FEEL YOU SHOULD TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, SO WHAT IF YOU HAD TO PROVID PAPER AND PENCIL, LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPLIES WE HAVE TO PROVIDE TO YOU TEACHERS. CHALK, MARKERS, EARSERS. MY GOD YOU COMPLAIN WAY TO MUCH. I SPENT OVER 100.00 DOLLARS FOR SCHOOL SUPPLIES AND MOST OF IT WAS FOR THE TEACHERS.
YOU ARE A ************!!!!!!!! I THINK YOU SHOULD LEAVE TEACHING. I KNOW YOU WILL BASH ME BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU DO, ANDI JUST WANTED TO ET YOU KNOW IF THAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER GO AHEAD.

Oh no, a parent having to actually pay money to raise their kids. Damn all those teachers and education system. I agree with you, all teachers should teach for free and supply everything for YOU.

[musicllover]

To all (most) of you Chocolate New Orleans bashers out there-----( allow me to speak for ya, Chocolate), he is not angry or frustrated with the implementation of legitimate and necessary IEPs for those students who do indeed have been truly diagnosed (i.e. Asperger's, autism, mentally handicapped), he is frustrated with using them for students who know the system. Mommy (and if there is a Daddy) knows the system, too--can't discipline him for a myriad of reasons, (all inexcusable)---He has stated this time and again in his posts. If I had the time, i would go back and find them all and list them for you, via quote. Yes, he is copping an attitude, but read his posts carefully.

I am not convinced that there is a "good" IEP as far as Choc. is concerned. As I've stated time and time again my suggestions to help, have other students hold an extra pencil to calling for a staffing and change the accom. I totally agree their is abuse of the IEP process and sometimes its the parents, sometimes it the school administration sometimes its the teachers themselves who simply want a "trouble maker," "slow learner," out of their rooms, or the flip side, they won't follow the IEP.
On another thread I was call a poop scooper or something like that.... (he did say he did the poop scooping for three years too)....so is that really how he feels, the Special Education process is just a bunch of BS to him, there is not any legitimate IEP's? He said about being a teacher and offering his syllabus, the proofs in the pudding...I agree, he hasn't proven anything to me yet. It takes more than a degree and license to be a teacher. I'm sure he will speak for himself, but from where I sit, and since I am the professional poop scooper or whatever it was he said, I should also know what a load of bull is.... and that would have to be most everything that Choc says. He might have a legitimate reason to complain, but its how he does the complaining that really offends people and like I already said, is there a good IEP as far as Choc is concerned?
musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I am not convinced that there is a "good" IEP as far as Choc. is concerned. As I've stated time and time again my suggestions to help, have other students hold an extra pencil to calling for a staffing and change the accom. I totally agree their is abuse of the IEP process and sometimes its the parents, sometimes it the school administration sometimes its the teachers themselves who simply want a "trouble maker," "slow learner," out of their rooms, or the flip side, they won't follow the IEP.
On another thread I was call a poop scooper or something like that.... (he did say he did the poop scooping for three years too)....so is that really how he feels, the Special Education process is just a bunch of BS to him, there is not any legitimate IEP's? He said about being a teacher and offering his syllabus, the proofs in the pudding...I agree, he hasn't proven anything to me yet. It takes more than a degree and license to be a teacher. I'm sure he will speak for himself, but from where I sit, and since I am the professional poop scooper or whatever it was he said, I should also know what a load of bull is.... and that would have to be most everything that Choc says. He might have a legitimate reason to complain, but its how he does the complaining that really offends people and like I already said, is there a good IEP as far as Choc is concerned?
musicllover

and I have stated that there are good ones. The problem is, it is an abused system just like welfare.

you want suggestions to help make IEP's that aren't needed, work.

I say if they aren't needed, don't write them just because his grades are low because he won't sit his happy butt down or shutup long enough to understand what's on the test.

[musicllover]

and I have stated that there are good ones. The problem is, it is an abused system just like welfare.

you want suggestions to help make IEP's that aren't needed, work.

I say if they aren't needed, don't write them just because his grades are low because he won't sit his happy butt down or shutup long enough to understand what's on the test.

Three things:
First I need for you to clarify what you mean "IF they aren't needed," a student isn't in Special Ed unless they have been tested and found to be eligible, it could be low IQ, maybe a High IQ but low verbal performance, or a discrepancy between IQ and performance. It could be a diagnose from a Doctor which we HAVE to follow.

Second a student can't come into the resource room unless they have an IEP, it is illegal, so technically what you are saying won't work. IF a student is receiving services they must have an IEP, that IEP has accomi/modification, goals and objectives that the SpEd teacher need to show is being followed.

Third, You said "you want suggestions to help make IEP's that aren't needed, work." NO I said I wanted to know why teacher refused to follow the IEP, for accom that ask for sending the student to the resource room for test taking, or shortening assignment, extended time...I've never said IEP aren't needed, so don't put words in my mouth? IEP's are legal and binding, they must follow compliance laws that comes from the state, which comes from the Gov. IDEA laws, they are needed as I just explained.

Is it the IEP or is it the Accom/mod, that you dislike so much, they are meant to help the student succeed, not necessarily with A's but with passing grades (remember I don't have a probably with an IEP student getting F's if they are honestly earn by the student and BY THE TEACHER). They are not intended to make a student lazy,(which again is your person opinion).

I REPEAT again, if something an IEP team has put on the IEP isn't working for you have a staffing and discuss it. The IEP team can do a change of action and make adjustments to the accom/mod even without the parents consent, but that is skirting on some dangerous territory, but I am told it can be done. IT could be for your class only, but the school must follow the IEP, which makes you having to follow too. If you follow the compliance laws everything is documented, so show where and why the accom did or didn't work for you. Maybe the pencil and paper accom you were talking about is wrong for your classroom, show why, explain it, sorry :p you have to have documentation. Which might be a simply note to the SpEd explaining why you refuse. She keeps that in her files and if the state comes through they can come talk to you about why your refusal. I've never had to deal with the state so I dont' know what or if they do anything. The parents on the other had can begin due process....but if you've got your butt covered with documentation on why and how ect ect you might be ok but I don't think your school want to go to the expense to pay for lawyers over a piece of paper and a pencil?

I of coarse have no idea the curcumstances surrounding this accom. but you are not as powerless as you imply. Its simply a fact, it the law that teacher are to follow the IEP.... but again is your job more important than a piece of paper and a pencil?
musicllover

[Unregistered]

Choc.,
A question (and keep in mind that on many points we agree, so I am simply asking, not attacking)--If you refuse to follow certain accomadations (and you seem proud of that) who are you hurting? The child did not set up the IEP, probably didn't even ask for it. So in your "conversation" with "John" you are showing obvious sarcasm toward a child who hadn't nothing to do with the modification. If your answer is that "John" is just too lazy to bring the paper and pencil, well then the IEP obviously needs to be changed. If this child never needed an IEP to begin with, the outcome is still the same, your are embarrasing the child about something he has no control. If this truly needs to be a modification (and I like you, can't imagine why), then once again are you not taking out your frustration on a child not deserving it.
Being that you teach the middle school age, and I teach much younger students, you can probably bring a different perceptive to this.
Once again, I am simply asking, not attacking.
Unregistered

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Three things:
First I need for you to clarify what you mean "IF they aren't needed," a student isn't in Special Ed unless they have been tested and found to be eligible, it could be low IQ, maybe a High IQ but low verbal performance, or a discrepancy between IQ and performance. It could be a diagnose from a Doctor which we HAVE to follow.
yeah, and welfare abusers have to first qualify for welfare. What makes IEP's so easy to abuse is SPED teachers "qualify" anyone and everyone. They give IEP's out like toilet paper, and therefore, make them about as valuable

Second a student can't come into the resource room unless they have an IEP, it is illegal, so technically what you are saying won't work. IF a student is receiving services they must have an IEP, that IEP has accomi/modification, goals and objectives that the SpEd teacher need to show is being followed.

The system is broke, just because SPED has painted itself into a corner with dumb laws, doesn't mean they are right.

We have schools in our district specifically for bad behavior WITH IEP's and bad behavior for kids WITHOUT IEP's. So either way, if the kid is simply there to cause problems, they are removed from the mainstream.

Third, You said "you want suggestions to help make IEP's that aren't needed, work." NO I said I wanted to know why teacher refused to follow the IEP, for accom that ask for sending the student to the resource room for test taking, or shortening assignment, extended time...I've never said IEP aren't needed, so don't put words in my mouth? IEP's are legal and binding, they must follow compliance laws that comes from the state, which comes from the Gov. IDEA laws, they are needed as I just explained. I know what you originally asked for, but you have later, numerous times, asked for suggestions on how to fix IEP's. I know you believe they are needed. that's our problem.

I think the system is broke, and what is needed to change
you think the system is fine, and teachers like me are to blame, and that I need to change

Is it the IEP or is it the Accom/mod, that you dislike so much, they are meant to help the student succeed, not necessarily with A's but with passing grades (remember I don't have a probably with an IEP student getting F's if they are honestly earn by the student and BY THE TEACHER). They are not intended to make a student lazy,(which again is your person opinion). [/quote

see, there you go again, you assume I don't want to help the kids. You fall back to the tried argument "if you don't support IEP's, you must not want to help kids" argument.

To me, an IEP is needed when there is no fix to the educational problem - (ie - brain damage, mental retardation, autism, etc)

Giving an IEP to every Jimmy and Jane to merely cheapens what an IEP is for.

When standards to qualify are continually expanded to include as many as possible, you can't argue that "the kid was professionally diagnosed"

[quote]I REPEAT again, if something an IEP team has put on the IEP isn't working for you have a staffing and discuss it. The IEP team can do a change of action and make adjustments to the accom/mod even without the parents consent, but that is skirting on some dangerous territory, but I am told it can be done. IT could be for your class only, but the school must follow the IEP, which makes you having to follow too. If you follow the compliance laws everything is documented, so show where and why the accom did or didn't work for you. Maybe the pencil and paper accom you were talking about is wrong for your classroom, show why, explain it, sorry :p you have to have documentation. Which might be a simply note to the SpEd explaining why you refuse. She keeps that in her files and if the state comes through they can come talk to you about why your refusal. I've never had to deal with the state so I dont' know what or if they do anything. The parents on the other had can begin due process....but if you've got your butt covered with documentation on why and how ect ect you might be ok but I don't think your school want to go to the expense to pay for lawyers over a piece of paper and a pencil?

I of coarse have no idea the curcumstances surrounding this accom. but you are not as powerless as you imply. Its simply a fact, it the law that teacher are to follow the IEP.... but again is your job more important than a piece of paper and a pencil?
musicllover

you seem to be forgetting, I never did refuse to give a pencil, I simply chose the time I felt was best since the IEP didn't specify.

"document why I refused" - yeah right, my mama drowned all her dumb babies. :rolleyes:

I never 'refuse' any accom. I b itch and complain in staffing meetings and stupid accom's like this don't get passed on meetings I sit in on. Of course, the problem is when we inherit this mess from other schools.

Accom's like this do not help a kid, it entitles him, and eventually, he won't have an IEP in real life. You simply give him a pencil to appease him. Ask Churchill how well appeasement worked in 1938.

So, to answer - I hate unnecessary IEP's, because they are only for serious problems, not bad behavior. I also hate the the accom's because they are written by SPED teachers who don't have a clue about the problems with implementation. But why should they worry, not like you have 30 kids (12 of which have IEP's) sitting in front of you waiting on teacher to supply them a pencil and trying to cut up while waiting.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Choc.,
A question (and keep in mind that on many points we agree, so I am simply asking, not attacking)--If you refuse to follow certain accomadations (and you seem proud of that) who are you hurting? The child did not set up the IEP, probably didn't even ask for it. So in your "conversation" with "John" you are showing obvious sarcasm toward a child who hadn't nothing to do with the modification. If your answer is that "John" is just too lazy to bring the paper and pencil, well then the IEP obviously needs to be changed. If this child never needed an IEP to begin with, the outcome is still the same, your are embarrasing the child about something he has no control. If this truly needs to be a modification (and I like you, can't imagine why), then once again are you not taking out your frustration on a child not deserving it.
Being that you teach the middle school age, and I teach much younger students, you can probably bring a different perceptive to this.
Once again, I am simply asking, not attacking.
Unregistered

Saying that a kid has no control is simply not true. (I'm talking about the agerange I deal with, middleschool). Public ridicule is a good tool that the PC world has shied away from because little johnny may get his feelings hurt. :rolleyes: Boo hoo. Do what you're supposed to, and nothing happens.

If a kid chooses not to bring a pencil, why does the school have to provide.
If a kid chooses not to stay seated or cuss out the teacher, he doesn't need an IEP to address his lack of impulse control, he 1. needs a desperately needed ************ whuping from someone, preferably his parents, and 2. doesn't need to be enabled (while it's not OK to cuss me out, you can stay in here and take as long as you need to get it under control, and when you cuss me out next time, we won't hold it against you, we'll simply extend the time frame you need to change your behavior by) That is what an IEP is and why I disagree with them.

Remember, I'm not refusing to follow an IEP, I know it's the law, I am interpreting it particular ways. I gave a pencil - at the END of class. The IEP didn't say when, so I had to interpret when.

[musicllover]

... SPED teachers "qualify" anyone and everyone. They give IEP's out like toilet paper, and therefore, make them about as valuable

SpEd teacher in Mo. don't have the power to write IEP like toilet paper, students have to test in Choc, how many times do I have to say it. Yes professional opinion is an option but I can guarantee you that it won't fly long. If our sped count is to high for the size of our school that raises the red flags and the state will do a review to find out why. So again your mistaken.


The system is broke, just because SPED has painted itself into a corner with dumb laws, doesn't mean they are right.

Just because it is your opinion that SPED has painted itself into a corner doesn't make you right either.

I know what you originally asked for, but you have later, numerous times, asked for suggestions on how to fix IEP's. I know you believe they are needed. that's our problem.

Sure that the system need ssome tweaking, but its all we have. When I offered the RTI you continued to trash that idea too. You WHOLE opinion isn't just about stupid accom/mod its about the WHOLE SPED process. You sound as though we should take all the low IQ students, (but not those with a Doc. diagnosis) drop them off the face of the earth...The BD kids are a pain in the butt, and I would like to see more done about this rather than an IEP. But at the same time, if we simply stop giving IEP's for behavior then what? How about a BD kid with NO IEP in your classroom?


I think the system is broke, and what is needed to change
you think the system is fine, and teachers like me are to blame, and that I need to change

Nope not totally true, I've said that the IEP, SpEd process has flaws, but again when the RTI model you trashed that, and its not even a SpEd thing. So Who are you blaming? SPED TEACHER this SPED TEACHERS do that.....I only want to understand why some teacher don't follow the IEP, when some do?


see, there you go again, you assume I don't want to help the kids. You fall back to the tried argument "if you don't support IEP's, you must not want to help kids" argument

You said the proof is in the pudding, if you were really concerned about "helping" student then follow the IEP's as intended. Provide a pencil means the pencil is given at the beginning of class, that is understood by a teacher who actually cares...., you said I follow the IEP but screw the intent....the intent was to see to it the child received the right equipment. I have no idea why, good or bad it needs to be followed at least until you can have a staffing. I don't' have to assume anything your words explain it all.

To me, an IEP is needed when there is no fix to the educational problem - (ie - brain damage, mental retardation, autism, etc)

Giving an IEP to every Jimmy and Jane to merely cheapens what an IEP is for.

When standards to qualify are continually expanded to include as many as possible, you can't argue that "the kid was professionally diagnosed"

I totally agree, since you don't know me you don't know how I practice, I have no problem turning students away from the SpEd room. But if the students test low enough I also have no other choice than to except them into the program.Once a student is referred I am legally bound to follow through with the necessary evaluations...its ALL based on testing scores, IQ, achievement, development....


"document why I refused" - yeah right, my mama drowned all her dumb babies. :rolleyes:

OPPS she missed one :p Why NOT? What do you have to fear you know your rights,....lol. You have ever right to say, I think this is stupid and why? Come on you claim I had no family jewels so here is your opportunity to speak up about the so called broken system.

Of course, the problem is when we inherit this mess from other schools.

Accom's like this do not help a kid, it entitles him, and eventually, he won't have an IEP in real life.

I understand the mess you get into from other schools, but the SpEd dept. can except or reject the IEP. At least in Mo. I don't like the argument about not having an IEP in real life. That is simply a ignorant arguement...did you want to be a brain surgeon, probably not, because you knew that you couldn't make the grades, what about a rocket scientist? Did you ever want to be a basket ball player....then maybe its because you can play the game. IEP students are no different than main stream students, they aren't going to be something they dont have the brain to do. Many of my IEP students aren''t going to function at full capacity in life, they aren't going to be taking many jobs from the surgeons or scientist (although there have been a few who have). I for one think that if a student is function too low they need to learn life skills and not worry about Algebra, what war was when or about proton nutrons....but then that may be wrong on my part too. So help me understand how NOT providing a pencil and paper until after he needs it is going to help him later in life?


So, to answer - I hate unnecessary IEP's, because they are only for serious problems, not bad behavior. I also hate the the accom's because they are written by SPED teachers who don't have a clue about the problems with implementation.[/QUOTE]

See you keep blaming the SpED teachers, the whole sped process, and accom/mod ect ect... and then you say I'm blaiming you???? LOL, no I simply want to understand what is so hard about modifying a test, have them do all odds, skip the essay, do 10 problems not 20, I don't try to make any Gen Ed. teacher life more difficult, but I do want to help my IEP students succeed.

musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I won't multi-quote, it's getting confusing and I would need an IEP that gets someone to read it to me since I am too lazy to do it myself (it works for kids in class, why can't I get an accom for lazy)


1. SPED doesn't write IEP's like TP they test in

But when they keep extending the criteria that makes it easier to 'test into it'.

2. offered RTI as a solution

that's not a real solution, it's like changing the name from HCST testing to graduate, to FCAT to graduate. Same poop, different diaper

3. Follow IEP's as intended.

Don't leave it open to translation. I believe I'm doing the kid a favor by giving pens at the end of class. It teaches responsibility, where no one else has.
IEP enables this kid to never have to since somebody else will do it for him.

4. document my non-compliance - "come on you claim I had no family jewels so here is your opportunity to speak up about the so called broken system."

come on now, don't be so naive. DO you also want me to take a picture of myself smoking crack (document) and show that to the cops and say "I don't agree with the drug laws"?

2nd point there is - you are assuming I'm not following the IEP. Just because I don't follow it the way you think I should, doesn't mean I'm not following it. If you need a pencil given at the BEGINNING of class, write it in that way. How hard is it to write in time frames if it's that important?

5. School refuse the IEP in Mo.

We can't do that here. We can call a re-eval, but that takes up to a month. Meanwhile, here we are, expected to give a pencil to a kid so he doesn't have to do it himself.


6. Why don't teachers follow IEPs

one, I do follow IEP's, but I can't speak for all. If they don't, I assume the reason (which you have asked for numerous times) probably has something to do with it being a completely assinine accom.

[musicllover]

I won't multi-quote, it's getting confusing and I would need an IEP that gets someone to read it to me since I am too lazy to do it myself (it works for kids in class, why can't I get an accom for lazy)


1. SPED doesn't write IEP's like TP they test in

But when they keep extending the criteria that makes it easier to 'test into it'.

2. offered RTI as a solution

that's not a real solution, it's like changing the name from HCST testing to graduate, to FCAT to graduate. Same poop, different diaper

3. Follow IEP's as intended.

Don't leave it open to translation. I believe I'm doing the kid a favor by giving pens at the end of class. It teaches responsibility, where no one else has.
IEP enables this kid to never have to since somebody else will do it for him.

4. document my non-compliance - "come on you claim I had no family jewels so here is your opportunity to speak up about the so called broken system."

come on now, don't be so naive. DO you also want me to take a picture of myself smoking crack (document) and show that to the cops and say "I don't agree with the drug laws"?

2nd point there is - you are assuming I'm not following the IEP. Just because I don't follow it the way you think I should, doesn't mean I'm not following it. If you need a pencil given at the BEGINNING of class, write it in that way. How hard is it to write in time frames if it's that important?

5. School refuse the IEP in Mo.

We can't do that here. We can call a re-eval, but that takes up to a month. Meanwhile, here we are, expected to give a pencil to a kid so he doesn't have to do it himself.


6. Why don't teachers follow IEPs

one, I do follow IEP's, but I can't speak for all. If they don't, I assume the reason (which you have asked for numerous times) probably has something to do with it being a completely assinine accom.


I've not read anything your worte belong the first line or two and glancing at the bottom, to clarify, if Mo. refused the IEP they do have to write one of their own...., SO lets me done with this ok, all you like to do is bate a person to respond, while you don't give any real solutions...ssoooo I'm gathering up my toys and not going to play with you any more. As I said on another thread, we can agree to disagree.

simple fact, that you can't deny, IEP's are legal documents.
so deal with it in your own way, I'll do my job my way....and Thank the high heavens we'll never have to work in the same building. :D

musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I've not read anything your worte belong the first line or two and glancing at the bottom, to clarify, if Mo. refused the IEP they do have to write one of their own...., SO lets me done with this ok, all you like to do is bate a person to respond, while you don't give any real solutions...ssoooo I'm gathering up my toys and not going to play with you any more. As I said on another thread, we can agree to disagree.

simple fact, that you can't deny, IEP's are legal documents.
so deal with it in your own way, I'll do my job my way....and Thank the high heavens we'll never have to work in the same building. :D

musicllover

don't worry, there's a CNO at your school, doing exactly what I'm doing. I am happy living vicariously through him/her. And at least I've beat up my SPED teacher at my school (he hates when I mention that)

[Unregistered]

Just thought I'd throw in some first hand experiences. I have no intentions of registering, and I have no intentions of following up on responses.. so do with this what you will. I've read through this entire thread and couldn't help but see so many sides that are echoed within my own family.

One - I have an autistic child with an IEP in a 15:1:1 placement who I know firsthand can be one little handful, but she's a doll too. One item I insisted was put in her IEP is there for the simple fact that nobody would think of accomodating her without it being put in there in a legal fashion. Down time. She needs down time at various points throughout the day to prevent major head banging meltdowns - the accumulation of frustration and stress. At the same time, she's relatively high functioning.. enough to where *I* was worried about this item being included in her IEP in fear she might take advantage of it. Down time consists of a break away from class.. to rock, or to go to the library where it's quiet.. and then rock. Sometimes this might take her from class.. but so far she hasn't abused the priviledge. I follow up and check. It's there in her IEP because she needed it to be. I'd been previously told they'd offer her various ways of decompressing.. and yet they never did. They never did until it was in the IEP. It's a shame it was necessary.

One could point out a similiar sort of issue in some archaic laws still on the books. Apparently it's still illegal to throw a live moose from an airplane in Alaska? .. or to keep an icrecream cone in your back pocket in the state of Alabama? lol The point is, at some point, someone did it.. which required a law to be made, for whatever reason. Now here in our situation, at some point, many people knowingly and willfully, OR.. out of ignorance of autism, ignored the obvious (to me) signs of an impending meltdown.. and did not remove my daughter from the provoking situation, or provoked her themselves.. on purpose or accidently. "Down time" in an IEP should not be necessary if the teachers who are supposedly familiar with autistic disorders were actually familiar with autistic disorders.. hence the "law."

Two - A situation occurred in this same 15:1:1 classroom that I didn't know the half of until it reached a crisis. A student, having been pulled from their family in a nearby state by CPS, was eventually put in the same class as my autistic daughter, while with a foster family here. She had a criminal record a mile long, was on probation and had a notorious reputation with the police. I found this out *after* she'd assaulted my daughter, after at least 6 months of my trying to handle the issues in regards to her bullying my daughter. I thought she was just another special ed student.. perhaps with more issues than my daughter. Two court appearances and one restraining order later.. I've come to the conclusion that not all "special needs" are the same *kind* of special needs.. and although this occurred last year, I still get rather dumbfounded that they put what was akin to a gang member into a classroom with autistic and down's kids. Hardly every kid in special ed is "severe" or "severe" in the same sense. Schools would do better in considering that and placement.

Third - I am the mom of an ADD son, supposedly. He is a typical 15 year old in every possible way, but his attention span... and yet, I don't buy it. Not with this kid. Nobody knows their own children like their own parents. I trust anyone reading this will know I certainly know mine. I know he's certainly capable of doing homework consistantly. I know he's capable of pulling higher grades. I also know he's capable of manipulating me, his school, his teachers and *any* lack of communication that might occur between all of us.. lying and deceiving us all as he attempts to avoid his responsibilities. I will always help him if he's willing to meet me half way. Effort on his part is a big problem. I *refuse* to consider special education for him.. and I refuse to lay up on the consequences when he's bringing home an F in Geography due to lack of homework, when if that homework involved a Nintendo DS game, he'd ace it. He was diagnosed with ADHD at 3 years old. Someone tell me what is wrong with us as society when we're diagnosing babies with ADHD? He's got a beautiful personality, always willing to help others, he's gentle and perceptive, and a master at deceit. lol There is no way in hell I'd ever see him with an IEP. Not with A's in Algebra when he *tries.* I think if he were someone else's child, he'd ****************er them in a heartbeat. He's ****************ered me. Through tears, through scenes of frustration and occasionally anger, venting on his teachers, them venting on me, through consequences and time, hopefully one day I will see him graduate school having learned that responsibility is something that never goes away, that what you do today could very well effect you the rest of your life.. and in a couple years, hold down a damn job. lol

To sum it up.. there are things that are put in IEPs because parents are forced to, knowing it could be a little rediculous, but it's there to provide something *when it's needed* with no other way to enforce it's provided without inclusion in an IEP. Not all kids in special ed are there because they're learning delayed... and lastly, some may end up in special ed because they've exasperated teachers and parents so badly, they throw up their hands in despair. The classic boot in the butt is against the laws these days, dontcha know. lol

PS: For a proper flaming thread, this is a good example:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35183

I hope I've helped in my small way. Carry on. lol

[Unregistered]

The word edited out would be the same as saying "fooled." My son has fooled many. "Nuff said.

[musicllover]

Just thought I'd throw in some first hand experiences. I have no intentions of registering, and I have no intentions of following up on responses.. so do with this what you will. I've read through this entire thread and couldn't help but see so many sides that are echoed within my own family.

One - I have an autistic child with an IEP in a 15:1:1 placement who I know firsthand can be one little handful, but she's a doll too. One item I insisted was put in her IEP is there for the simple fact that nobody would think of accommodating her without it being put in there in a legal fashion. Down time. She needs down time at various points throughout the day to prevent major head banging meltdowns - the accumulation of frustration and stress. At the same time, she's relatively high functioning.. enough to where *I* was worried about this item being included in her IEP in fear she might take advantage of it. Down time consists of a break away from class.. to rock, or to go to the library where it's quiet.. and then rock. Sometimes this might take her from class.. but so far she hasn't abused the priviledge. I follow up and check. It's there in her IEP because she needed it to be. I'd been previously told they'd offer her various ways of decompressing.. and yet they never did. They never did until it was in the IEP. It's a shame it was necessary.

One could point out a similiar sort of issue in some archaic laws still on the books. Apparently it's still illegal to throw a live moose from an airplane in Alaska? .. or to keep an icrecream cone in your back pocket in the state of Alabama? lol The point is, at some point, someone did it.. which required a law to be made, for whatever reason. Now here in our situation, at some point, many people knowingly and willfully, OR.. out of ignorance of autism, ignored the obvious (to me) signs of an impending meltdown.. and did not remove my daughter from the provoking situation, or provoked her themselves.. on purpose or accidently. "Down time" in an IEP should not be necessary if the teachers who are supposedly familiar with autistic disorders were actually familiar with autistic disorders.. hence the "law."

Two - A situation occurred in this same 15:1:1 classroom that I didn't know the half of until it reached a crisis. A student, having been pulled from their family in a nearby state by CPS, was eventually put in the same class as my autistic daughter, while with a foster family here. She had a criminal record a mile long, was on probation and had a notorious reputation with the police. I found this out *after* she'd assaulted my daughter, after at least 6 months of my trying to handle the issues in regards to her bullying my daughter. I thought she was just another special ed student.. perhaps with more issues than my daughter. Two court appearances and one restraining order later.. I've come to the conclusion that not all "special needs" are the same *kind* of special needs.. and although this occurred last year, I still get rather dumbfounded that they put what was akin to a gang member into a classroom with autistic and down's kids. Hardly every kid in special ed is "severe" or "severe" in the same sense. Schools would do better in considering that and placement.

Third - I am the mom of an ADD son, supposedly. He is a typical 15 year old in every possible way, but his attention span... and yet, I don't buy it. Not with this kid. Nobody knows their own children like their own parents. I trust anyone reading this will know I certainly know mine. I know he's certainly capable of doing homework consistantly. I know he's capable of pulling higher grades. I also know he's capable of manipulating me, his school, his teachers and *any* lack of communication that might occur between all of us.. lying and deceiving us all as he attempts to avoid his responsibilities. I will always help him if he's willing to meet me half way. Effort on his part is a big problem. I *refuse* to consider special education for him.. and I refuse to lay up on the consequences when he's bringing home an F in Geography due to lack of homework, when if that homework involved a Nintendo DS game, he'd ace it. He was diagnosed with ADHD at 3 years old. Someone tell me what is wrong with us as society when we're diagnosing babies with ADHD? He's got a beautiful personality, always willing to help others, he's gentle and perceptive, and a master at deceit. lol There is no way in hell I'd ever see him with an IEP. Not with A's in Algebra when he *tries.* I think if he were someone else's child, he'd ****************er them in a heartbeat. He's ****************ered me. Through tears, through scenes of frustration and occasionally anger, venting on his teachers, them venting on me, through consequences and time, hopefully one day I will see him graduate school having learned that responsibility is something that never goes away, that what you do today could very well effect you the rest of your life.. and in a couple years, hold down a damn job. lol

To sum it up.. there are things that are put in IEPs because parents are forced to, knowing it could be a little rediculous, but it's there to provide something *when it's needed* with no other way to enforce it's provided without inclusion in an IEP. Not all kids in special ed are there because they're learning delayed... and lastly, some may end up in special ed because they've exasperated teachers and parents so badly, they throw up their hands in despair. The classic boot in the butt is against the laws these days, dontcha know. lol

PS: For a proper flaming thread, this is a good example:

http://www.motownsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35183

I hope I've helped in my small way. Carry on. lol

Your post proves a very good point, and one which I tried to explain earlier. I dont' have any idea why some accom/mod are suggested on IEP's since I don't know the student or the situation that might have caused the accom/mod to begin with. Each situation is different and calls for different interventions. We do not have a classrooms full of cookie cutter kids, each and every one is different and special in their own way, in SpEd or out. I happen to work with those in SpEd. but sympathize with my gen ed teacher too. Teaching isn't easy in any classroom.
musicllover

[Unregistered]

Musicllover,
I have a question. Can you think of any reason Choc. might be required on an IEP to provide pencil and paper to a child? I tend to believe him on this, and have tried to figure out what situation would warrant this.
I am not asking this sarcasticlly, or to support Choc.'s view of IEP's. I ask because I am truly curious. I have read many of your comments, and feel you are fair and honest in your replies.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

she'll come back saying she doesn't know the situation enough to be able to tell, but that the professionals before me did know something. And just because you and I don't see the reasons, doesn't mean they aren't there.


I know why they wrote them.... because they were oiling a squeaky wheel.
The parents were whining helicopter parents and in order to get them to shut up, the first team conceeded to whatever they wanted because they didn't have the testicular fortitude to stand up for what was right. After all, they were all probably well aware that the kid was moving to another school (which happened to be mine) shortly anyways. Let the next school worry about it.

Musicllover loves to try and sidestep the issue by saying IEP's are the law (not the issue) and others jump in because they are either anti-CNO or they have a kid who legitamately needs an IEP.

Legitimate cases have never NEVER been my issue. But everytime I am expected to give a lazy kid a pencil, I have less time to give a copy of the notes that my legally blind girl (not totally blind though) desperately needs.

If time were an infinite resource, I wouldn't worry, but until the IEP team can figure out how to add a 25th hour to the day, or an 8th day to the week, I will stand up in IEP meetings and say "no, I will not sign off on that rediculous accom."

[Unregistered]

Aaaaahhhh! Choc., you ruined the surprise. I was looking forward to musicllover's answer.
Musicllover, I would still like your input on this.

Choc., I hear you loud and clear about legitimate IEP's, and there simply not enough hours in the day, and yet, I strive to understand the system. Give musicllover a chance.

She is the first special ed. person I have heard truthfully state that these students may not be doctor's or lawyer's. They may be sackers at a grocery store (nothing wrong with that, as long one is happy) or break down boxes at Walmart. Where I teach, we are lead to believe that if we work hard enough these students will become doctors, lawyers, and engineer. So everyday, I bust my butt, trying to make this happen. IEP or not, I would not stop trying, but what a relief to know at least one special ed. teacher has commom sense.

You may not read her comments carefully, but many times she agrees with you.
Hopefully she will answer.

[musicllover]

Musicllover,
I have a question. Can you think of any reason Choc. might be required on an IEP to provide pencil and paper to a child? I tend to believe him on this, and have tried to figure out what situation would warrant this.
I am not asking this sarcasticlly, or to support Choc.'s view of IEP's. I ask because I am truly curious. I have read many of your comments, and feel you are fair and honest in your replies.

Sure, Thanks I do strive to be fair with everyone although I can get my upset with certain opinions.
I posted a few ideas on another thread but all the threads are running together. There are several reasons why an accommodation like this might come up. Traumatic brain injury, autism, mental retardation....tramatic brain injury is difficult to work with, students can literally forget what they have just learned, forget what class is next, providing pencil and paper only helps the student NOT have to worry about the little things, autism, students with this DX sometimes its just easier for the necessary books, pencil/paper ect already be in the classroom, these students hate disorganization, can obsess over the little thinks and usually need some kind of routine and order. As I mentioned earlier one of my autistic student had some trouble with being in crowds of people, so we left the room early (before the bell) he routinely had to covered his ears when the bell rang, and I carried his pencil and books for him because he could be dangerous if to many people were around, until we could teach him better coping skills handling pencils, books, were just too much for him. Mental Retardation, is another example of a student needing routine, they can be disorganized, sometimes they lack good study skills, providing the student with the necessary pencil/paper is a very simply way of helping that student be prepared to learn instead of fidgeting over where their pencil is. MR doesn't have to be the drooling, can't walk right student by the way. Some can look and act "normal," for what that is worth. They can be just the opposite and have enough pencils for the whole class. But mentally they are slow and need extra help and time. We also might think about the class before or after Social Studies... What happens if the special needs students has just left gym, but their locker is on the third floor and Social Studies is on the first floor or possibly the student has just left art and wants to take every pencil in the room with them. Maybe their Mobility is limited, wheel chairs, braces, as a para one of my favorite student had no fingers due to a house fire, so I provided him a pencil (when he finally got so he could hold one) I fed him, I wrote for him, I wiped his nose, I help him to the restroom.... ect ect. there are many reasons why.

This is no way a conclusive list, nor are my descriptions of these students even fair, cause not all students aren't going to fit each description. I don't want to stereotype anyone. Not knowing what Choc students IEP says leaves us at a disadvantage as far as helping Choc deal with this accom. But then that is possibly done on purpose too. Maybe Choc doesn't know? You do bring up a good point though, Gen ed teacher should communicate with the Special Ed. dept to find out just why this accom is necessary, all teachers can and should read the IEP that is on record in the office or in the Sp Ed room? If this accom is right or wrong its not fair to lump all accom into Choc many many complaints about the IEP process. I understand that Choc believes there are "real" reason for accom. I am sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong but ADD, ADHD are not diagnosis he agrees with. Accom. like this make the student lazy and help the parents continue to be bad parents.....His issue is that this student doesn't need this accom. But as a sped teacher before a host of other teacher I ask, (wow that sounded good)....how are we to truly judge when all we have is a biased opinion????? I again say lets work together gen and special ed to make it right or at least workable for your class.
musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Sure, Thanks I do strive to be fair with everyone although I can get my upset with certain opinions.
I posted a few ideas on another thread but all the threads are running together. There are several reasons why an accommodation like this might come up. Traumatic brain injury, autism, mental retardation....tramatic brain injury is difficult to work with, students can literally forget what they have just learned, forget what class is next, providing pencil and paper only helps the student NOT have to worry about the little things, autism, students with this DX sometimes its just easier for the necessary books, pencil/paper ect already be in the classroom, these students hate disorganization, can obsess over the little thinks and usually need some kind of routine and order. As I mentioned earlier one of my autistic student had some trouble with being in crowds of people, so we left the room early (before the bell) he routinely had to covered his ears when the bell rang, and I carried his pencil and books for him because he could be dangerous if to many people were around, until we could teach him better coping skills handling pencils, books, were just too much for him. Mental Retardation, is another example of a student needing routine, they can be disorganized, sometimes they lack good study skills, providing the student with the necessary pencil/paper is a very simply way of helping that student be prepared to learn instead of fidgeting over where their pencil is. MR doesn't have to be the drooling, can't walk right student by the way. Some can look and act "normal," for what that is worth. They can be just the opposite and have enough pencils for the whole class. But mentally they are slow and need extra help and time. We also might think about the class before or after Social Studies... What happens if the special needs students has just left gym, but their locker is on the third floor and Social Studies is on the first floor or possibly the student has just left art and wants to take every pencil in the room with them. Maybe their Mobility is limited, wheel chairs, braces, as a para one of my favorite student had no fingers due to a house fire, so I provided him a pencil (when he finally got so he could hold one) I fed him, I wrote for him, I wiped his nose, I help him to the restroom.... ect ect. there are many reasons why.

This is no way a conclusive list, nor are my descriptions of these students even fair, cause not all students aren't going to fit each description. I don't want to stereotype anyone. Not knowing what Choc students IEP says leaves us at a disadvantage as far as helping Choc deal with this accom. But then that is possibly done on purpose too. Maybe Choc doesn't know? You do bring up a good point though, Gen ed teacher should communicate with the Special Ed. dept to find out just why this accom is necessary, all teachers can and should read the IEP that is on record in the office or in the Sp Ed room? If this accom is right or wrong its not fair to lump all accom into Choc many many complaints about the IEP process. I understand that Choc believes there are "real" reason for accom. I am sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong but ADD, ADHD are not diagnosis he agrees with. Accom. like this make the student lazy and help the parents continue to be bad parents.....His issue is that this student doesn't need this accom. But as a sped teacher before a host of other teacher I ask, (wow that sounded good)....how are we to truly judge when all we have is a biased opinion????? I again say lets work together gen and special ed to make it right or at least workable for your class.
musicllover

Traumatic brain injury - No
autism - no
mental retardation - no

This kid had none of the above. Honestly, I could agree easily for that particular accom if any of the 3 above were a problem. Here's why he got the accom

This student was diagnosed L.A.Z.Y. / A.S.S.H.O.L.E.

[musicllover]

[QUOTE=Chocolate_New_Orleans;26556]she'll come back saying she doesn't know the situation enough to be able to tell, but that the professionals before me did know something. And just because you and I don't see the reasons, doesn't mean they aren't there.

You are somewhat correct, we don't know why the accom was written from a layman's view it doesn't sound like a good accom. But I really don't know why it was written, I've suggested that possibly the SpEd teacher knew the SS teacher is hard to get along with....;) I also know that you have said that there are accom/mod that you would follow if it were a "true" special needs. But then what is your definition of a "true" need. I've seen both sides of the coin on the ADD/ADHD. Some kinds can't thrive with out the meds, others are zombies because of it, or it makes them worse. I have also seen parents who find a doctor who will agree to anything and the kid is taking meds he doesn't need. There is abuse in all areas of education, Sped can and is abused Choc. I've never denied that there are some areas that need fixed. But you have a tendency to come across as believing ALL IEP's are bogus and you have point blank said the SpEd is the ruin of our educational system, we need to start over, blah blah blah. Please stop trying to make me the bad person here because I an a Sp Ed teacher. I want to help and get some answers myself. You follow me all over the board usually the first person to post and you mock, belittle, make fun, and give unwanted advice that is not in the list bit helpful. I can see why I can't can't any help because of you insults and ingnorant responses. I am only trying to make my little world easier and better for me and my students. I ask question that hopefully can be answered by someone who knows the answers and who cares, you lack both so would you back off and allow someone to answer with out jumping down their throats for having anything to do with SpEd ?
musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

[quote]

You are somewhat correct, we don't know why the accom was written from a layman's view it doesn't sound like a good accom. But I really don't know why it was written, I've suggested that possibly the SpEd teacher knew the SS teacher is hard to get along with....;) I also know that you have said that there are accom/mod that you would follow if it were a "true" special needs. But then what is your definition of a "true" need. I've seen both sides of the coin on the ADD/ADHD. Some kinds can't thrive with out the meds, others are zombies because of it, or it makes them worse. I have also seen parents who find a doctor who will agree to anything and the kid is taking meds he doesn't need. There is abuse in all areas of education, Sped can and is abused Choc. I've never denied that there are some areas that need fixed. But you have a tendency to come across as believing ALL IEP's are bogus and you have point blank said the SpEd is the ruin of our educational system, we need to start over, blah blah blah. Please stop trying to make me the bad person here because I an a Sp Ed teacher. I want to help and get some answers myself. You follow me all over the board usually the first person to post and you mock, belittle, make fun, and give unwanted advice that is not in the list bit helpful. I can see why I can't can't any help because of you insults and ingnorant responses. I am only trying to make my little world easier and better for me and my students. I ask question that hopefully can be answered by someone who knows the answers and who cares, you lack both so would you back off and allow someone to answer with out jumping down their throats for having anything to do with SpEd ?
musicllover

Why is a general ed teacher not considered an expert, or a layperson, when it comes to the subject of students?

And for the record, I was on this Sped forum a LONG TIME before you ever decided to join the board. Chances are, you are another one of the 'unregistered' users that finally decided to register so you could confront me.

Who's following whom

[musicllover]

[quote=musicllover;26605]

Why is a general ed teacher not considered an expert, or a layperson, when it comes to the subject of students?

And for the record, I was on this Sped forum a LONG TIME before you ever decided to join the board. Chances are, you are another one of the 'unregistered' users that finally decided to register so you could confront me.

Who's following whom


LAYMAN's meaing ANYONE, to ANYONE with or with out a teaching degree...ok, anyone might think that the pencil/paper accom. sounds wrong...OK. GEE


And for the record NO I came on and registered to post, I didn't even know you could post with out being reg. You are so paranoid Choc, maybe you should go see a therapist. I am serious, do you think everyone on this board unreg, or registered is out to get you???? LOL. AHHHAHHAHHHHAHHA I'm the boogie man Choc, I will haunt you in my after life...lol.
musicllover

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

not out to get me, but there sure are a lot of CNO sackriders out there.



You know the song lyric - "don't stand on Superman's cape...."

[Unregistered]

not out to get me, but there sure are a lot of CNO sackriders out there.



You know the song lyric - "don't stand on Superman's cape...."

Choc.,
Just for your info. I am one of those unregistered writers, and I have defended you many a time. Why am I not registered? Just haven't taken the 5 minutes to do it.
Maybe musicllover is right, maybe you are paranoid (ha, ha).

[Unregistered]

Stumbled across this forum while searching for some help. I am sorry I did! I have a 17-year old daughter who has high functioning Aspergers Syndrome, severe ADHD, ODD, Anxiety Disorder and RAD. Why should you keep paper and a pencil available in the classroom for her? Because after years of trying to get her to "remember" or to get better organized, she still struggles with organizational skills. Now, I am sure I'll get a lot of guff about this statement. But for all of you who say you care about teaching, why would keeping paper, a pencil, and an extra text book in your classroom make you so bitter and angry? I need to add that my daughter is an A & B student, who is in desperate need of assistance in this area. What we have done with her IEP is to make the paper and pencil available, and to give her a positive reward when she remembers to bring it to class on her own. The supplies kept in the classroom are supplied by US and not the school. The teacher is simply the keeper of the supplies and notes how often our daughter requests the supplies (needed to see if we are making progress on the goal). She is doing better, but she still needs the accommodation. You see, if teachers would recognize ADHD as a disability, they would know how dibilitating and severe it can be. Prior to the accommodation, she was given zeros if she forgot her pencil, paper and/or book. (100% on a test and zero for forgetting supplies = a failing grade). So, I ask teachers, is your goal to punish her for forgetting the pencil and paper, or is your goal to get her to learn and master the material you work so hard to teach? As for retesting, re-read the question above! There are many reasons for retesting. And, by the way, our daughter does not have that written into her IEP! As for homework, remember that kids like mine have a hard time staying focussed in school. After spending all day in school, asking them to do two or three hours of homework at night and large projects on the weekend, overwhelms them. Please, have a little heart. We are parents who work hard to help our child. We also support teachers and administrators. But don't belittle or insult us or our children. We know you work hard, but we do also. You are important to our cildren and their success. Isn't that why you became a teacher?
Signed...SAD IN PA

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Stumbled across this forum while searching for some help. I am sorry I did! I have a 17-year old daughter who has high functioning Aspergers Syndrome, severe ADHD, ODD, Anxiety Disorder and RAD. Why should you keep paper and a pencil available in the classroom for her? Because after years of trying to get her to "remember" or to get better organized, she still struggles with organizational skills. Now, I am sure I'll get a lot of guff about this statement. But for all of you who say you care about teaching, why would keeping paper, a pencil, and an extra text book in your classroom make you so bitter and angry? I need to add that my daughter is an A & B student, who is in desperate need of assistance in this area. What we have done with her IEP is to make the paper and pencil available, and to give her a positive reward when she remembers to bring it to class on her own. The supplies kept in the classroom are supplied by US and not the school. The teacher is simply the keeper of the supplies and notes how often our daughter requests the supplies (needed to see if we are making progress on the goal). She is doing better, but she still needs the accommodation. You see, if teachers would recognize ADHD as a disability, they would know how dibilitating and severe it can be. Prior to the accommodation, she was given zeros if she forgot her pencil, paper and/or book. (100% on a test and zero for forgetting supplies = a failing grade). So, I ask teachers, is your goal to punish her for forgetting the pencil and paper, or is your goal to get her to learn and master the material you work so hard to teach? As for retesting, re-read the question above! There are many reasons for retesting. And, by the way, our daughter does not have that written into her IEP! As for homework, remember that kids like mine have a hard time staying focussed in school. After spending all day in school, asking them to do two or three hours of homework at night and large projects on the weekend, overwhelms them. Please, have a little heart. We are parents who work hard to help our child. We also support teachers and administrators. But don't belittle or insult us or our children. We know you work hard, but we do also. You are important to our cildren and their success. Isn't that why you became a teacher?
Signed...SAD IN PA

Well, I will say, at least you provided the stuff. In my case, the classroom teacher was expected to provide it.

But even with that, what happens if it is stolen from the classroom, who's responsible to replace it? Not the teacher. The classroom is not a locker.

But the rest of your story is garbage. Your kid getting A's and B's is simply because teachers are bullied into giving your kid that grade and that she didn't earn any of it. Life is going to catch up with her hard and fast in about another year. Find me 1 job, JUST 1, that will give her rewards above and beyond what the normal worker gets for doing what's she is supposed to.

you have enabled your daughter to think that she is entitled to this and you have therefore, failed as a parent. Your daughter really sounds like if her parents were to die today (not wishing harm on you), that she would NOT be able to handle life on her own. And at 17, she should be able to.

ADHD/ODD/ADD all that alphabet soup crap you spewed means nothing more than you have raised a child not fit for the working world and have no parenting / discipline abilities to your family name.

lucky for SPED teachers, she'll end up breeding, (Probably very soon) and spread that lack of parenting ability on to another generation of worthlessness :rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

I hope and pray that you never have a child with disabilities because that child will likely be persecuted beyond belief. If God is good, he will not give you children or students or partners or friends because you hate yourself and everyone around you. Why don't you try digging ditches or mucking manure in a stable with your kind - jackasses?

[Unregistered]

Well, I will say, at least you provided the stuff. In my case, the classroom teacher was expected to provide it.

But even with that, what happens if it is stolen from the classroom, who's responsible to replace it? Not the teacher. The classroom is not a locker.

But the rest of your story is garbage. Your kid getting A's and B's is simply because teachers are bullied into giving your kid that grade and that she didn't earn any of it. Life is going to catch up with her hard and fast in about another year. Find me 1 job, JUST 1, that will give her rewards above and beyond what the normal worker gets for doing what's she is supposed to.

you have enabled your daughter to think that she is entitled to this and you have therefore, failed as a parent. Your daughter really sounds like if her parents were to die today (not wishing harm on you), that she would NOT be able to handle life on her own. And at 17, she should be able to.

ADHD/ODD/ADD all that alphabet soup crap you spewed means nothing more than you have raised a child not fit for the working world and have no parenting / discipline abilities to your family name.

lucky for SPED teachers, she'll end up breeding, (Probably very soon) and spread that lack of parenting ability on to another generation of worthlessness :rolleyes:


How could you say that, many children with those kinds of problems are very smart. As a sped teacher you should know that, also to sit there and bittle that person shows what kind of person you really are. Why do you treat people this way? what is your need to be so mean? Do you really not care? I think that you should find another job. People try to tell you why things are needed and you just try to turn it around, and bully them.

[Unregistered]

Stumbled across this forum while searching for some help. I am sorry I did! I have a 17-year old daughter who has high functioning Aspergers Syndrome, severe ADHD, ODD, Anxiety Disorder and RAD. Why should you keep paper and a pencil available in the classroom for her? Because after years of trying to get her to "remember" or to get better organized, she still struggles with organizational skills. Now, I am sure I'll get a lot of guff about this statement. But for all of you who say you care about teaching, why would keeping paper, a pencil, and an extra text book in your classroom make you so bitter and angry? I need to add that my daughter is an A & B student, who is in desperate need of assistance in this area. What we have done with her IEP is to make the paper and pencil available, and to give her a positive reward when she remembers to bring it to class on her own. The supplies kept in the classroom are supplied by US and not the school. The teacher is simply the keeper of the supplies and notes how often our daughter requests the supplies (needed to see if we are making progress on the goal). She is doing better, but she still needs the accommodation. You see, if teachers would recognize ADHD as a disability, they would know how dibilitating and severe it can be. Prior to the accommodation, she was given zeros if she forgot her pencil, paper and/or book. (100% on a test and zero for forgetting supplies = a failing grade). So, I ask teachers, is your goal to punish her for forgetting the pencil and paper, or is your goal to get her to learn and master the material you work so hard to teach? As for retesting, re-read the question above! There are many reasons for retesting. And, by the way, our daughter does not have that written into her IEP! As for homework, remember that kids like mine have a hard time staying focussed in school. After spending all day in school, asking them to do two or three hours of homework at night and large projects on the weekend, overwhelms them. Please, have a little heart. We are parents who work hard to help our child. We also support teachers and administrators. But don't belittle or insult us or our children. We know you work hard, but we do also. You are important to our cildren and their success. Isn't that why you became a teacher?
Signed...SAD IN PA

To the post above:
I was the one who originally asked why an IEP would state that a pencil and paper should be provided. Musicllover gave me a good answer and you stretched my understanding more.
Choc. does not agree with this, and so be it. That is his opinion.
But from me, thank you again.

[Unregistered]

I have never read such a bunch of crap over a pencil. Have the parent supply you with 180 pencils, one for each school day, and be done with it.

My son had a teacher in 1st grade that had all students bring in a pack of pencils and a pack of paper at the first of school. They turned them in to her and she kept them on a table at the front of the room. Anytime a student needed pencil or paper they went to the table and got one. They were already sharpened, so no one ever had to ask to sharpen a pencil. If your lead broke, turn that pencil in and get a sharpened one. At the end of the day, they put the pencil they used that day back in the jar on the table.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Unregistered]

I don't think you are a teacher at all. I think you are a disgruntled special ed. student.

[Unregistered]

Here's a novel idea. Give him the pencil at the beginning of class and have him turn it in at the end of class. He could use the same one or two pencils all year!

You say that if he was in the corporate world he would have to bring supplies to work. Last time I went to my job, they had pencils, pens, paper, staplers and staples, etc. I would hate to have to get up every morning and bring my own supplies to work. So you have to gather up pencils from your house and bring to work with you every morning? No wonder you are so bitter.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I have never read such a bunch of crap over a pencil. Have the parent supply you with 180 pencils, one for each school day, and be done with it.

My son had a teacher in 1st grade that had all students bring in a pack of pencils and a pack of paper at the first of school. They turned them in to her and she kept them on a table at the front of the room. Anytime a student needed pencil or paper they went to the table and got one. They were already sharpened, so no one ever had to ask to sharpen a pencil. If your lead broke, turn that pencil in and get a sharpened one. At the end of the day, they put the pencil they used that day back in the jar on the table.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

excellent plan for 1st graders, not middleschoolers. Besides, your average 1st grade teacher has what 25-30 kids a day... I have that per hour.

Next problem, where do you suggest I store 180 pencils multiplied by the 150 students I have?

Who is responsible if someone steals the pencils (kids will steal just to be pricks sometimes to you know).

Here's a novel idea. Give him the pencil at the beginning of class and have him turn it in at the end of class. He could use the same one or two pencils all year!

You say that if he was in the corporate world he would have to bring supplies to work. Last time I went to my job, they had pencils, pens, paper, staplers and staples, etc. I would hate to have to get up every morning and bring my own supplies to work. So you have to gather up pencils from your house and bring to work with you every morning? No wonder you are so bitter.

I do have to supply my kid with pencils everyday, it's a new novel approach to parenting called 'ACTUALLY PARENTING" I suggest people try it...

[Unregistered]

Do all 150 of your students have IEP's? I thought you were talking about 1 student.

My point about the first grade teacher was to use your imagination, your college education, and come up with a solution. Spend as much energy coming up with a viable solution as you do getting around what you need to do. It's just something to think about. You might be happier using your talents for good.

One last thought, it's not your job to "agree" with the IEP. It's your job to follow it. Just go to work and do what you are being paid to do. It's what everyone with a job does. I don't agree with everything I am asked to do on my job, but the world is not all about me. I'm not trying to slam you, just offer a different perspective to looking at life.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

out of 150, 50 of mine have IEP's. that's 1/3 for math majors out there.

What's ironic is that I actually have more SPED students to deal with than musicllover (or any of the SPED teachers in my school) has

So this is why I get so worked up over accoms that are silly in nature. It's easy for SPED teachers like musicllover to write accoms from how easy it is to implement from their perspective (40 kids ALL DAY) but they forget that not only do reg ed teachers have those same 40, we also have to deal with the other 110 that SPED teachers don't.

I remember last year, my SPED teacher was bit ching and complaining about his high numbers in his 1st period SPED class. He had 12. I went to his room one day and saw his class. Those 12 were all in my 6th period regular ed class, along with 3 others from his 3rd period, add to that, the 17 regular ed students. Why is it that 12 in his class is too much, but when there were 15 in mine, + another 15, it's ok?

There is not enough time in the day to accomodate for the lazy. There are enough real issues out there not to get bogged down on stupid accoms that were made simply to appease a helicopter parent.

You also made an analogy that I don't have to bring pencils in, that work provides them for me. Good point. But what about retesting... Do you get unlimited tries at turning in a project. Can you get extended time for turning in your attendance, 9 week grades, IEP's? Can you get flexible seating and demand a specific room to teach in?

Take it to outside education, can you get an IEP that says you get a window office by the front door?

Can I leave my nametag from McDonalds in the manager office because I can't remember to put it on before coming to work everyday?

[Unregistered]

Okay, Chocolate, they get to middle school and they still can't remember their pencil. I'm sure you are not the first teacher to try and get them to remember over the years. Do you really think that by you supplying the pencil at the end of class, that will "teach" them to remember?

It really sounds to me like your beef is with the special ed. system in general??? Don't punish the child. If all it takes is a pencil to make them successful, why not? It's not their fault the special ed. teacher has less than 1/3 of the students you have.

And you really don't have to wipe butts do you? That sounds more like accoms. for self-contained, not inclusion students.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Okay, Chocolate, they get to middle school and they still can't remember their pencil. I'm sure you are not the first teacher to try and get them to remember over the years. Do you really think that by you supplying the pencil at the end of class, that will "teach" them to remember?

It really sounds to me like your beef is with the special ed. system in general??? Don't punish the child. If all it takes is a pencil to make them successful, why not? It's not their fault the special ed. teacher has less than 1/3 of the students you have.

And you really don't have to wipe butts do you? That sounds more like accoms. for self-contained, not inclusion students.

no, I don't have to wipe butts, but it's getting closer and closer to that each year.

When a kid is working the system like kids with pencil accoms do, like the one I had did, it's not about the nickel pencil, it's about fighting for what's right. When a kid is being enabled to do this, it sends a message to him that he doesn't have to worry about consequences, someone else will do it for them.

Stupid accoms don't help kids, they hurt them. So by doing stuff like giving the pencil at the end of class instead of the beginning, I do feel I'm helping them. Kind of a 'tough love' kind of help.

[Unregistered]

When you get to be eighty years old and look back and reflect on your life, do you really want that reflection to be of how many lives of children you have made miserable and maybe turned them off further from school or life?

I do think the workplace is a more forgiving place than school. We expect our children to be experts at every subject, every sport, music, etc. When we get to the workplace, we can concentrate on what we are good at and what we like (with our supplies provided for us LOL). And if we need extra time on something, a lot of times we can go to the boss and get it, or we can ask a coworker for help with a project. There is just a lot of pressure on our children and I just wish you would think about your role in that. Why NOT be a positive influence. You being negative directly to the children does not change the system. Use your energy to fight the system in other ways. Just think about it.

[Unregistered]

Wow...it looks like if you would not be on the computer so much, you might actually be able to provide a good education to your students...and not be such a negative teacher...or whatever you are!

[Unregistered]

Time to Teach?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow...it looks like if you would not be on the computer so much, you might actually be able to provide a good education to your students...and not be such a negative teacher...or whatever you are!


Sorry, this was aimed at Chocolate_New_Orleans.

[Unregistered]

Perhaps you and your (poor) wife will have more children. I do hope that if this is the case, the child isn't born with ANY challenging issues to deal with. However, is this does happen, perhaps then it will hit you like the proverbial V-8 slap on the forehead as to what the constructive comments have been all about on these IEP and SPED forums.

[Unregistered]

CNO, when do you have time to teach, raise your child as perfectly as you do (tongue in cheek), give your wife any attention and go to these so-called wrestling matches? Seems as though you are always on the computer. Do you have any other form of entertainment? Day and night you are on the computer, no doubt looking for ANYTHING to stir the sh++. There are some really good games on the computer that can entertain you if you just cannot break away from the monitor----solitaire, scrabble, or take up porn. Just get a life.

[Unregistered]

I am the mother of the child you blast, and the person you think has no parenting skills. Chocolate, you are an ************ and you need to leave your job immediately. To you, it is only a job. For all of you teachers out there who work hard for kids like mine, thank you. You deserve a large percentage of the credit. But so does my daughter. Even with her struggles, she DOES IN FACT GET A's and B's. It does not come without a price to her. And, I can honestly say that no teacher in my daughter's school career has ever given her an A or B that she hasn't earned! Why don't you try a little education about how IEP's work???? If you really did have a clear understanding, you'd know that accommodations and supports are put into place for the child to aid them with their disability, but the content of the material is not changed! She still has to learn and know what every other child in the classroom knows. Because it may be presented differently to her, it does not mean that she doesn't have to study, memorize, and research the material! And, how dare you blame me or my child for her disabilities? You have no idea how hard it is to parent a child with disabilities. What goes around comes around, Chocolate, and your life is not over yet! Although if you keep acting like an idiot, I can't guarantee that some rouge parent won't track you down and wring your silly neck! God is good and merciful and LIFE will catch up with you--what goes around comes around! You never know what is going to happen to your kids, or to your family. I personally look at you as a "drama king!" As for my daughter never getting a job, she already has one and works every other weekend. And, she still gets A's and B's! The sad truth is that life has caught up with my daughter. It shows in many ways, obviously. A prime example, is in the prejudice of others (hmmm...who might that include?) Now, I could be like you, a bitter S-O-B, but what good would that do? We and she were dealt the hand we were dealt. Luckily, we have had and continue to have awesome teachers, therapists, and professionals in our lives. As for your comment that, "She'll end up breeding..." this just shows how low-class you really are. You are the one that I worry about breeding! Musicllover, I am glad I could provide further clarity about the pencil. Communicating with parents is the key to understanding why the goals of the IEP are so important. If something doesn't make sense or is hard to implement, ask the parent why it is needed or why it is being done! I am always keenly aware of limited teacher time and other constraints teachers work under. Most parents that I know consider these things when they sit down to participate in the IEP meeting. If not, then people like Chocolate will remind us, I am sure! Chocolate, I think the person who recommended a career change for you was right on the money. You already have lots of experience slinging manure!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

rraarrrrr!!!111

I must have hit a little too close to home it appears.

I plan to retire one day, from teaching, many many years from now. No such luck on getting out of the field :eek:

[St. Louis Blues]

Chocolate, hitting close to home is an understatement. It's really unreal how cruel you can be regarding children with disabilities. An unregistered said it right---you would never know the impact of that until you had a kid like that of your own. Who in the blazes are you to make those kinds of generalizations and statements about those kids---like they will be "breeding" (they aren't horses or cows) soon enough, etc. Wow, that's cruel and rather perverse. Sorta scary----sorta reminds me of genocide, weed out the undesirable ones (i.e. Hitler). You're going to mess up one day and someone is going to beat the **** out of you.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

uh huh, right.

I can handle a butt kicking. My cuts and scrapes will heal nicely as I drive away in my new car that you just bought me for my troubles. :D


I can't help it that my kids are born with good genetics and the rest do not. Genetic superiority prevails again I suppose...:rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

If your family is good genetics, I am so glad that mine is not in that gene pool. You will eventually get what is due you - and it ain't a new car! Any chance that you are related to Tom Cruise?

[Unregistered]

Chocolate, what's a new car got to do with it? If you want to get down and dirty, I'll match my 6-figure income against your income any day! We are talking about children with disabilities!!!!!!! Not how much money you make, or what car you drive. Do you have any idea who in history had Asperger's Syndrome? Why don't you do a little research and then report back to us. If you want to get technical, those folks have the superior genetics! Einstein, Mozart, etc., etc. If they were around today, just think, they'd have IEP's! And further food for thought, you have no idea who I am nor do you have any idea how I may be connected to your school district. To write comments like you wrote about me and my daughter is just plain stupid. She is not a rabbit! You owe me and the other upstanding teachers who are kindly sharing important information a serious apology for being so crude. Tenure or no tenure, if a parent of a disabled child in your school district sees your postings, you my friend, will join the population you call "worthless" in the unemployment line. Think I am kidding, ask any school law attorney and see what answer you get. Lastly, I think you have ODD and ADHD and perhaps a few other co-existing disorders that need to remain nameless in the interest of keeping this post clean! Think before you speak. Your impulsivity is worse than my daughters!

[Unregistered]

I certainly don't want to get down and dirty with anyone on this thread, but did anyone pick up on one statement Choc. made? Out of 150 students he teaches, 50 are on IEP's. I am going with the idea that he is telling the truth. Doesn't that # seem a little out of whack! Does 1/3 of our population have learning problems?
I saw a report on television once stating that 75% of one sixth grade class was on medication for ADHD. What's wrong with this picture?
Could anyone ignore Choc.'s attitude and comment on this? Don't these # seem high?

Now to address Choc. You said you had 150 (I think that is it) students per day. You commented that a first grade teacher only has 20 students all day. I have read many, many of your posts. I have agreed with many, many of your statements, and never have I acted like I understood your job. I've never done your job, so how could I possibly understand it. Well Choc., I am assuming you have never taught first grade. Do not assume that it is any less stressful than your job, just because there are "only" 20 kids. The kindergarten and first grade teachers I know work 10 hour days, and many put in time on the weekends.
I respect your job and its stresses. Try to respect someone in the same profession with just a different set of circumstances.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

the new car is what I would drive after someone beats my butt for giving my opinion.

Such anger, though... all over a professional opinion, because like it or not, I am a professional and just because you don't like my opinion, doesn't make it any less valid. It's not politically correct, but that's the difference between what I type (how I truly feel) and what I say and how I say it in the classroom, in meetings, etc.

I think the apology is owed to the 29 other students that are in your kid's class (where if they are as disabled as you claim, shouldn't be there)


The apology is to my kid, who has to sit in a class with a kid who is too lazy to bring their own pencil and the parents to lazy to actually parent and MAKE their kid bring it when she has to everyday.



Here's an IEP for the kid that won't bring a pencil to school, or loses it.

Student must tape the fawkin pencil to their wrist.

That, or more realistically, get a pen that comes on a lanier to hang on their neck all day.

[Unregistered]

It is good that you are not a Language Arts teacher...and I do not believe that you are even a teacher, because if you think that statement (Student must tape...) is an IEP, then you truly do not have a clue. So go find something else to comment on that you might actually have some knowledge of.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I certainly don't want to get down and dirty with anyone on this thread, but did anyone pick up on one statement Choc. made? Out of 150 students he teaches, 50 are on IEP's. I am going with the idea that he is telling the truth. Doesn't that # seem a little out of whack! Does 1/3 of our population have learning problems?
I saw a report on television once stating that 75% of one sixth grade class was on medication for ADHD. What's wrong with this picture?
Could anyone ignore Choc.'s attitude and comment on this? Don't these # seem high?

Now to address Choc. You said you had 150 (I think that is it) students per day. You commented that a first grade teacher only has 20 students all day. I have read many, many of your posts. I have agreed with many, many of your statements, and never have I acted like I understood your job. I've never done your job, so how could I possibly understand it. Well Choc., I am assuming you have never taught first grade. Do not assume that it is any less stressful than your job, just because there are "only" 20 kids. The kindergarten and first grade teachers I know work 10 hour days, and many put in time on the weekends.
I respect your job and its stresses. Try to respect someone in the same profession with just a different set of circumstances.

I never said 1st grade was easier,the statement was made that one parent simply gave 180 pencils for their kid to store in class for the teacher to give out.

That policy works for first grade, it's not so easy to implement in the 7th grade when a kid has 6 sometimes 7 teachers. Is a parent to supply 180 pencils x's the total number of classes their kid has?

Where am I supposed to store 180 pencils for a kid as more and more IEP's make that accom.

150 pencils x's 180 days....

That's 27,000 pencils. Now I need to come up with a way to make sure nothing happens to them.

That's why I complain. A SPED teacher doesn't consider the legistics of implementing certain accoms. It's easier for them to do this simply because they don't have the shear #'s that I do. They look at it from their perspective, not the general ed teacher's perspective. Problem is during IEP meetings, the general ed teacher is sometimes the only one in the room with this perspective

[Unregistered]

I certainly don't want to get down and dirty with anyone on this thread, but did anyone pick up on one statement Choc. made? Out of 150 students he teaches, 50 are on IEP's. I am going with the idea that he is telling the truth. Doesn't that # seem a little out of whack! Does 1/3 of our population have learning problems?
I saw a report on television once stating that 75% of one sixth grade class was on medication for ADHD. What's wrong with this picture?
Could anyone ignore Choc.'s attitude and comment on this? Don't these # seem high?

Now to address Choc. You said you had 150 (I think that is it) students per day. You commented that a first grade teacher only has 20 students all day. I have read many, many of your posts. I have agreed with many, many of your statements, and never have I acted like I understood your job. I've never done your job, so how could I possibly understand it. Well Choc., I am assuming you have never taught first grade. Do not assume that it is any less stressful than your job, just because there are "only" 20 kids. The kindergarten and first grade teachers I know work 10 hour days, and many put in time on the weekends.
I respect your job and its stresses. Try to respect someone in the same profession with just a different set of circumstances.

As far as 1/3 of his class having a learning disability, I think that is a crock and he is exagerating. In my district, it is an act of Congress to get a child classified as having a learning disability. A realistic number would be about 15-18 students in a school of 700. Having 150 students per day is probably correct, but not 1/3 having LD. While it is true that a school gets additional funding for a student with an IEP, they usually end up losing money on that child because of the extra services they receive. Districts usually go out of their way NOT to identify students, not the other way around.

[Unregistered]

As far as 1/3 of his class having a learning disability, I think that is a crock and he is exagerating. In my district, it is an act of Congress to get a child classified as having a learning disability. A realistic number would be about 15-18 students in a school of 700. Having 150 students per day is probably correct, but not 1/3 having LD. While it is true that a school gets additional funding for a student with an IEP, they usually end up losing money on that child because of the extra services they receive. Districts usually go out of their way NOT to identify students, not the other way around.

It is very obvious you know more about special ed. than I do, and I appreciate your comments. One-third seemed high to me, as well. I am sure we will hear from Choc. on this.

[Unregistered]

Choc my boy, you are no professional! And you really don't know anything about the IEP process. I think you need to be educated about the process and the law behind the IDEA. My daughter and other kids like her have the right to an education in the LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT in which they can succeed with accommodations and supports. You are getting paid to do a job. Tax payers pay your salary! Board members, the general public, and kids like mine make it possible for you to have a job. I knew an apology was not going to be forthcoming. You are a little man with a little mind. I would never think of saying anything about your child. I would also never apologize to him/her for having my daughter as a classmate. She is not lazy. Like I said, you don't know me, you don't know my daughter, and you don't know who reads these postings. Trust me, you should not be a teacher. If you don't like honoring IEP's go work in a private school, where IEP's don't have to be honored. I stumbled upon this site and thought I could get an answer to a question pertaining to special education since it was a site for teachers. I had no idea that there were teachers out there as crude and ill-informed as you. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But not at my daughter's expense. Don't act like this is about freedom of speach and personal expression. This is about hate and prejudice against KIDS with disabilities and learning difficulties. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Unregistered]

It is very obvious you know more about special ed. than I do, and I appreciate your comments. One-third seemed high to me, as well. I am sure we will hear from Choc. on this.

I'm sure we will hear from him too, as it seems he CAN'T SHUT UP!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

As far as 1/3 of his class having a learning disability, I think that is a crock and he is exagerating. In my district, it is an act of Congress to get a child classified as having a learning disability. A realistic number would be about 15-18 students in a school of 700. Having 150 students per day is probably correct, but not 1/3 having LD. While it is true that a school gets additional funding for a student with an IEP, they usually end up losing money on that child because of the extra services they receive. Districts usually go out of their way NOT to identify students, not the other way around.

well it seems our districts are different then. These were the 2006-2007 numbers, they are no longer with me. My current group of middleschoolers have a lot less in SPED numbers, but my 1st period is 50/50 again. (15 out of 30)

My school has about 25% SPED out of 1500 Pre-K through 12

[Unregistered]

Attention Sad in Pa.:

If you want the best information out there on sped. come over to schwablearning.org

They have recently sold their website, but it is still currently open until mid-February. It is the most knowledgeable site out there. Come over, you won't get any of this nonsense there.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Choc my boy, you are no professional! And you really don't know anything about the IEP process. I think you need to be educated about the process and the law behind the IDEA. My daughter and other kids like her have the right to an education in the LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT in which they can succeed with accommodations and supports. You are getting paid to do a job. Tax payers pay your salary! Board members, the general public, and kids like mine make it possible for you to have a job. I knew an apology was not going to be forthcoming. You are a little man with a little mind. I would never think of saying anything about your child. I would also never apologize to him/her for having my daughter as a classmate. She is not lazy. Like I said, you don't know me, you don't know my daughter, and you don't know who reads these postings. Trust me, you should not be a teacher. If you don't like honoring IEP's go work in a private school, where IEP's don't have to be honored. I stumbled upon this site and thought I could get an answer to a question pertaining to special education since it was a site for teachers. I had no idea that there were teachers out there as crude and ill-informed as you. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But not at my daughter's expense. Don't act like this is about freedom of speach and personal expression. This is about hate and prejudice against KIDS with disabilities and learning difficulties. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I've written my fair share of IEP's:rolleyes: I have a minor in SPED. I knew that was my ticket into an overcrowded teacher's market. I became a SPED teacher for my first 3 years until my social studies job at the school I wanted was offered to me. And yes, I have sat through all the IDEA crap too.

Just because I don't agree with much of the process, don't confuse yourself to think I don't know anything about it. It's easy to get turned off by my attitude, but if you read what I say, REALLY READ, you will, no doubt, begin to see I am a teacher. You are simply still in the denial stage. Stick around, register, read what I say, and then be run off when you get angry that there are a lot on here that actually agree. :eek:

you say your daughter has the right to least restrictive, what about the other 29 in her class, do they not deserve the same thing. Your daughter being shoved down their throats in their class makes it where their education is restricted.

again another case of bend over backwards for the 1, screw the other 29.

I say, help the 29, screw the 1. Actually, just stick the 1 in a class with 19 others just like her and it will help both your daughter (who I do believe deserves an education) and the gen ed population (who have the unfought for right to an unrestricted education as well)

[Unregistered]

well it seems our districts are different then. These were the 2006-2007 numbers, they are no longer with me. My current group of middleschoolers have a lot less in SPED numbers, but my 1st period is 50/50 again. (15 out of 30)

My school has about 25% SPED out of 1500 Pre-K through 12

If your first period is 50/50, 15 out of 30, that is because the children with LD are probably grouped together to take advantage of the inclusion teacher in other classes. A lot of schools do this because of scheduling and so the inclusion teacher is not running around all day trying to help 15 students in 15 different classes. They are all there in one class at a time. If they are grouped together, then that would mean you have all your sped kids in 1st period, and hardly any in other classes. Correct? You present the numbers as if ALL your classes are 50/50.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

If your first period is 50/50, 15 out of 30, that is because the children with LD are probably grouped together to take advantage of the inclusion teacher in other classes. A lot of schools do this because of scheduling and so the inclusion teacher is not running around all day trying to help 15 students in 15 different classes. They are all there in one class at a time. If they are grouped together, then that would mean you have all your sped kids in 1st period, and hardly any in other classes. Correct? You present the numbers as if ALL your classes are 50/50.

2 points, last year (not the current year) it was every class but the one advanced class I had (but don't be fooled, there were 2 in there) This year, again, not so bad.

this year, not so bad. But the fact that it HAS happened is what's important. It was 50/50 last year

2nd point, who's fighting for the other 15 reg ed kids in the class of 30

[Unregistered]

"I never said 1st grade was easier,the statement was made that one parent simply gave 180 pencils for their kid to store in class for the teacher to give out." Choc.'s statement

Thank you for clarifying. I will be the first to admit I am somewhat defensive of my grade level. People seem to assume that because they are 6 they can cause no problems, so I appreciate you clarifying your point.

To those of you who don't believe Choc. is a teacher, I don't understand how you could not see he is a teacher. Sure, he is gruff, many times rude, and states his opinions holding back nothing, but he knows way to much about the system not to be a teacher.

I have stated this before, and will state it again, if you read Choc.'s posts carefully he does make some good points. Of course, I do not agree with all he says, and I would never be so crude, but read carefully and a few good points are there.

Interesting, I seem to be defending Choc., and we are about a 180 on the personality chart.

[Unregistered]

A definite plus for you! He is one person I am glad I don't have to come into contact with each day!

[Unregistered]

I don't care what points he makes that are "good". 100 good points doesn't negate the fact that he is rude and disrespectful to children who have special needs and to their parents on this board. Anyone that speaks the way he does is a danger to children. Plus he is breaking the law by not following IEP's. It doesn't matter what point he makes, he just needs to do as he is told. Talk about ODD. Sounds like he has a good case of it. He talks about who is going to save the 29 children from the 1 sped child. Who is going to save all 30 of them from HIM!

[Unregistered]

I don't think this is about hate and prejudice. I think Choc. has valid points. The spec. ed. system is messed up, and unfortunately there is no easy solution. I do think it is unfortunate that Choc. seems to take his dislike of the system out on the children.
But facts 'iz facts folks--if you have a spec. ed. (and of course this statement also depends on the severity of the disability) that child is going to take more time, not just in class, but prep. time (if you are a caring teacher). The math can not be argued with--if you spend more time with one child there is less time with the other children in an hour or day.
What's the answer. I don't know, and before anyone attacks, I don't have Choc.'s crass attitude toward these students. I work very hard with these kids, believe they should be in the regular classroom when possible, and love them all.
But it is still a difficult situation. Laws are passed, and we all know water runs down hill, so down the laws run landing squarly on the teacher's shoulders. I don't know about all the other teachers out there, but I am not paid for an eleven hour day, weekends, and after school free tutoring.

[Unregistered]

I don't care what points he makes that are "good". 100 good points doesn't negate the fact that he is rude and disrespectful to children who have special needs and to their parents on this board. Anyone that speaks the way he does is a danger to children. Plus he is breaking the law by not following IEP's. It doesn't matter what point he makes, he just needs to do as he is told. Talk about ODD. Sounds like he has a good case of it. He talks about who is going to save the 29 children from the 1 sped child. Who is going to save all 30 of them from HIM!

He is also egged on by these types of messages. He loves it. He thrives on it. You are better off ignoring him.
He tends to go away when there is no controversy. We can't change him. He is not going to change his mind, and unless you know where he teaches, there is not much you can do about it. Look, he started this thread. If no one had answered he would have slithered back into his cave from whence he came.

[Unregistered]

He is also egged on by these types of messages. He loves it. He thrives on it. You are better off ignoring him.
He tends to go away when there is no controversy. We can't change him. He is not going to change his mind, and unless you know where he teaches, there is not much you can do about it. Look, he started this thread. If no one had answered he would have slithered back into his cave from whence he came.

The problem is, the cave from whence he came is someone's child's classroom.

[Unregistered]

The problem is, the cave from whence he came is someone's child's classroom.

This is true, but you still can't do anything, unless you know where he teaches, and I am sure you know as well as I do that he will not change his mind.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I don't think this is about hate and prejudice. I think Choc. has valid points. The spec. ed. system is messed up, and unfortunately there is no easy solution. I do think it is unfortunate that Choc. seems to take his dislike of the system out on the children.
But facts 'iz facts folks--if you have a spec. ed. (and of course this statement also depends on the severity of the disability) that child is going to take more time, not just in class, but prep. time (if you are a caring teacher). The math can not be argued with--if you spend more time with one child there is less time with the other children in an hour or day.
What's the answer. I don't know, and before anyone attacks, I don't have Choc.'s crass attitude toward these students. I work very hard with these kids, believe they should be in the regular classroom when possible, and love them all.
But it is still a difficult situation. Laws are passed, and we all know water runs down hill, so down the laws run landing squarly on the teacher's shoulders. I don't know about all the other teachers out there, but I am not paid for an eleven hour day, weekends, and after school free tutoring.

maybe I should put it in my signature, you hit the nail on the head. But I should put in my sig that I have never once, refused to follow an IEP. NEVER. I have followed everysingle one. But sometimes, they aren't always clear. Just like my "must provide pencil and paper to student everyday". Ok, when? So, I did, but since I had to interpret when, I did, at the end of the class.


As far as my attitude, meh, I'm not worried how I come off. The truth is being typed. I make my points without worrying about political correctness. That's the problem with the world is people are too afraid to make valid points because the subject is taboo. Questioning if a kid is really disabled is VERY TABOO, but it's a legitamate concern of reg ed teachers who have to waste time providing retest after retest because someone with 10 kids thinks that this one is disabled.

[St. Louis Blues]

Chocolate, I agree with the poster who said you thrive on this controversy with your posts. I do agree with another poster who said that you had some very good points. But nowhere, in re-reading your posts, have I seen ANY hint or indication that you CARE for these students, IEP or otherwise.

[Unregistered]

I will tell everyone what is really sad about all of this. Since Dec. of 2006 this has been going on. I think Mr. Man here as had his 15 mins of fame. Just quit replying to him and walk away from the computer. Don't feed on someone else's ignorance. Just know this man will never change, and no matter what anyone says he will still be saying whatever he wants.

GOD Bless EVERYONE!!!!

[St. Louis Blues]

:oYou are so right. I just get so angered by his total arrogance and ignorance, that I can't help but respond. But, this is what he wants. Makes you wonder what other forums he is on, and what sort of controversy he stirs up there. One has to feel sorry for him, he obviously has nothing else to entertain him. Idealistically, if he were "boycotted" and no one resonded to him, he would go away.

[bioteach200]

As far as 1/3 of his class having a learning disability, I think that is a crock and he is exagerating. In my district, it is an act of Congress to get a child classified as having a learning disability. A realistic number would be about 15-18 students in a school of 700. Having 150 students per day is probably correct, but not 1/3 having LD. While it is true that a school gets additional funding for a student with an IEP, they usually end up losing money on that child because of the extra services they receive. Districts usually go out of their way NOT to identify students, not the other way around.


I teach at a "middle/small" sized school --- there are about 150-170 kids per grade.

Last quarter in my Bio 2 class I had 30 students and 10 were on an IEP...now I'm not the math teacher but that seems like 1/3 to me!!! On test days---my room was a lot more empty than on a regular day!!! Thank god I had a para in the room that hour because I would have never been able to give my SpEd students the help that they need PLUS the help that my other students need.

Now..this 1/3 ratio was a bit extreme for this particular class... in my Physical Science 2 class this quarter I have 8 out of 22 kids on an IEP (again thank god I have a para!!! Thank-you paras for all you do!!)...

This does happen in individual classrooms from time to time!!!

[Unregistered]

I teach at a "middle/small" sized school --- there are about 150-170 kids per grade.

Last quarter in my Bio 2 class I had 30 students and 10 were on an IEP...now I'm not the math teacher but that seems like 1/3 to me!!! On test days---my room was a lot more empty than on a regular day!!! Thank god I had a para in the room that hour because I would have never been able to give my SpEd students the help that they need PLUS the help that my other students need.

Now..this 1/3 ratio was a bit extreme for this particular class... in my Physical Science 2 class this quarter I have 8 out of 22 kids on an IEP (again thank god I have a para!!! Thank-you paras for all you do!!)...

This does happen in individual classrooms from time to time!!!

Yes, it will happen from time to time. Like I said before, Chocolate made it seem like every class he taught was 50/50. The sped kids are usually grouped together to make scheduling easier to take advantage of the inclusion teacher and her time. So, yes, you will have 1 class where the ratio is higher. However, all your classes will not be that way.

[Unregistered]

From Choc.'s original post:
3. not really an IEP accomodation, but ESE teachers are dead set against homework grades, or counting daily work since they beleive that an ESE grade should be based on tests only. Instead, I call homework, an open-book test that they do once a week, at home (to allow for all the time they need to complete it, of course ;) ).

First ESE? Forgive me not knowing this acronym.
I know very little about this subject, and teach younger students, but I need to ask this question: Why is a teacher against daily work grades, and wants all grades based on tests? What if the child is not a good test taker? Where is the "balance" in that method? That seems more like college.
Would anyone explain this to me?

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

ESE = Exceptional Student Education

Same thing as SPED, but I have figured SPED is an acronym that everybody recognizes.

SPED teachers are against daily grades because you'll find most Sped classes are full of kids who refuse to work. Plenty of ability, no work effort. So, in order for those smart SPED kids to pass, daily work can't be counted. Besides, it's easier to say "allow unlimited retests" because that is easier to make up last minute before the end of the 9 weeks, the typical time that SPED kids tend to worry about grades.

SPED kid/parent- what does Johnny have to do to get his 24F up to a passing grade

what the teacher says - turn in all the daily work (10 hours worth) by the end of the week

what the SPED kid/ parent WANTS to hear - redo test 1,2, and 3. That can be done in 1 period.

[Unregistered]

ESE = Exceptional Student Education

Same thing as SPED, but I have figured SPED is an acronym that everybody recognizes.

SPED teachers are against daily grades because you'll find most Sped classes are full of kids who refuse to work. Plenty of ability, no work effort. So, in order for those smart SPED kids to pass, daily work can't be counted. Besides, it's easier to say "allow unlimited retests" because that is easier to make up last minute before the end of the 9 weeks, the typical time that SPED kids tend to worry about grades.

SPED kid/parent- what does Johnny have to do to get his 24F up to a passing grade

what the teacher says - turn in all the daily work (10 hours worth) by the end of the week

what the SPED kid/ parent WANTS to hear - redo test 1,2, and 3. That can be done in 1 period.

Okay, going with what you are saying:
If the child is going to pass test 1, 2, and 3 would he not have to go back and study, which basically amounts to doing the daily work (if the teacher assigned it smartly). So isn't it just as much work to study to redo a test than to just do the daily work (I think that makes sense)? I mean, if they don't study for the test, why would they do any better the second time, or third, or fourth for that matter.
Remember, I really know nothing about this, but that would be my view. If the kid is going to redo the test, doesn't he have to study anyway? In a way, you would be doing him a favor because 100% of his grade would not be based on tests.
I am glad to hear from anyone else besides Choc.
I am sure others have an opinion, since no one seems to like Choc.'s.
I ask my above question in all sincerity, not to dispute or agree with anyone.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

you see,that's he problem,they don't study for the retest. They simply keep trying over and over, making you grade itover andover with no attempt at actually trying to do better, just guess better.

How many tests do you think your average teacher has? Eventually, on a multiple choice test, you can simply eliminate the wrong letter choices.

I am tired of having to go the extra mile when the kid won't. Making them catch up the daily work/ homework, at least ensures that they read the chapter before the retest (studying)

[Unregistered]

you see,that's he problem,they don't study for the retest. They simply keep trying over and over, making you grade itover andover with no attempt at actually trying to do better, just guess better.

How many tests do you think your average teacher has? Eventually, on a multiple choice test, you can simply eliminate the wrong letter choices.

I am tired of having to go the extra mile when the kid won't. Making them catch up the daily work/ homework, at least ensures that they read the chapter before the retest (studying)

Well, in that is kind of what I was thinking would happen. So, just doing the daily work at the time given would just make more sense. Although, I know very little about this, as I teach a much younger grade, I tend to agree with you.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

prove you are ready to redo a test. Each test I regrade, takes 3 minutes. The problem multiplies each time one of the kids wants to retest.

1 kid retests 5 times. 15 minutes. Multiplied by 30 kids all doing the same thing because their IEP says they must be allowed to retest infinite number of times = 225 minutes. That's almost 4 hours and that's test #1. I test about 12 times a year.

2700 minutes = 45 hours regrading tests that they should have studied for the first time.

That's a problem SPED teachers don't account for. They don't have the numbers REG ED does. A retest accom for a full time SPED kid isn't that big of a deal, but when he is in a class of reg ed kids, mixed in with the others that have IEP's, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't have an extra 45 hours to simply retest every student throughout the year 5 times. Somebody suffers when I have to spend extra time on 30 kids throughout the day. Guess who??? the other 120 regular ed kids do.

[Unregistered]

prove you are ready to redo a test. Each test I regrade, takes 3 minutes. The problem multiplies each time one of the kids wants to retest.

1 kid retests 5 times. 15 minutes. Multiplied by 30 kids all doing the same thing because their IEP says they must be allowed to retest infinite number of times = 225 minutes. That's almost 4 hours and that's test #1. I test about 12 times a year.

2700 minutes = 45 hours regrading tests that they should have studied for the first time.

That's a problem SPED teachers don't account for. They don't have the numbers REG ED does. A retest accom for a full time SPED kid isn't that big of a deal, but when he is in a class of reg ed kids, mixed in with the others that have IEP's, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't have an extra 45 hours to simply retest every student throughout the year 5 times. Somebody suffers when I have to spend extra time on 30 kids throughout the day. Guess who??? the other 120 regular ed kids do.

It's all over the place--not realizing just how much falls on the teachers shoulders. When I started teaching, many moons ago, I would send home 2 pieces of paper a year to report a child's progress. Perhaps that was not enough reporting to the parents, but now I send home 26 papers per year per student to report on a child's progress (these reflect the report card, and all the different tests we give). This is somewhere over 600 papers per year I fill-in, to send home, per child. Most parents tell me they don't even understand the paper work. So I very much get your point.

[Unregistered]

I didn't know where to post this so I just put it here

This was too funny to not pass on!!!


Many people have a hard time understanding the pressure of the No Child
Left Behind Act on schools and this helps put it all into perspective. Enjoy
(at the expense of teachers nationwide)!!



No Child Left Behind - Football Version

The football version of what is going on in education right now. (If you're
not an educator, this may not make a lot of sense to you. But send it to
your friends who are in education. They will love it!)

1. All teams must make the state playoffs and all MUST win the championship.
If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until
they are the champions, and coaches will be held accountable. If after two
years they have not won the championship their footballs and equipment will
be taken away UNTIL they do win the championship.

2. All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the same
time, even if they do not have the same conditions or opportunities to
practice on their own. NO exceptions will be made for lack of interest in
football, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or
disabilities of themselves or their parents. ALL KIDS WILL PLAY FOOTBALL AT
A PROFICIENT LEVEL!

3. Talented players will be asked to workout on their own, without
instruction. This is because the coaches will be using all their
instructional time with the athletes who aren't interested in football, have
limited athletic ability or whose parents don't like football.

4. Games will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept in the
4th, 8th, and 11th game. This will create a New Age of Sports where every
school is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach
the same minimum goals. If no child gets ahead, then no child gets left
behind. If parents do not like this new law, they are encouraged to vote for
vouchers and support private schools that can screen out the non-athletes
and prevent their children from having to go to school with bad football
players.

[Sorshah]

Dear Chocolate_New_Orleans,

I just want to say that I applaud your efforts for at least trying. I completely understand where you are coming from and despite what others are saying and implying, I don't think you are a terrible teacher. Like you, I am extremely frustrated by the current policies in the education system; one of which - is the subject at hand, an IEP.

The original intent and design of the IEP barely exists anymore. The IEP was designed for students with serious learning disablilities who really benefited from diferentiated instruction, aids, and/or additional resources. Only a select few who were accompanied by serious evaluations and testings were placed on an IEP. Again, these were students with serious needs.

However, a classroom of 30 students now-a-days can hold anywhere between 3-4 IEPS and/or 504s, if not more. And ironically, an IEP holds all the same modications: extended test time, preferential seating, test retakes if student falls below a C, 2-3 day extension for in-class/ homework. blah blah blah.

Wow...how about a cherry on top of that whipped icing too? :rolleyes:

Sigh. Man, I do not want to be bitter here so I will do my best :)

Folks, what exactly are we teaching our kids? I don't think either party to whom I owe money would ask, "Are you currently on an IEP?" I do not get any extensions. I don't get any second chances. Instead, I pay a late fee and see the results on my credit report.

By the way, just because an IEP is a legal document doesn't mean that it makes it right. I studied abroad in Europe for a year and a half and came back to the states utterly disheartened. Sure, there were programs offered to those students with serious needs, but guess what...99% of the rest of the student body were told to either sink or swim, and guess what...we swam! I felt completely satisfied by my results because I worked hard like a dog! I never realized how easy I had it back in the United States until I studied and worked abroad. Here, in the United States, my god folks...take a look...we have a serious problem on our hands. :( Our youth doesn't know how to sew, cook, clean, or take care of themselves. We are in serious trouble, and all that most of you can say is...another lump of sugar? :confused:

[Unregistered]

When a teacher suggests to parent, because in my opinion, that's where the most suggestions come from, the teacher, to have little Johnny here tested because he's not sitting still and paying attention...perhaps the school personnel as well as the outside doctors whom perform other testings that have to be done, now that the parent has requested such testing, should just look the other way at the very actual tests they have to perform on the child in order to resolve whether little Johnny has this or that and needs an IEP to accommodate whatever needs that little Johnny has.

Say, perhaps, with the ADD or ADHD diagnosis...because all teachers get a questionaire to fill out describing this or that about said child. How about you lie on it and put in all good answers? Then maybe you will have one less student with an IEP.

The parents and little Johnny are not the teachers nor are they the doctors. They are not the one who make the diagnosis'.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

When a teacher suggests to parent, because in my opinion, that's where the most suggestions come from, the teacher, to have little Johnny here tested because he's not sitting still and paying attention...perhaps the school personnel as well as the outside doctors whom perform other testings that have to be done, now that the parent has requested such testing, should just look the other way at the very actual tests they have to perform on the child in order to resolve whether little Johnny has this or that and needs an IEP to accommodate whatever needs that little Johnny has.

Say, perhaps, with the ADD or ADHD diagnosis...because all teachers get a questionaire to fill out describing this or that about said child. How about you lie on it and put in all good answers? Then maybe you will have one less student with an IEP.

The parents and little Johnny are not the teachers nor are they the doctors. They are not the one who make the diagnosis'.


well, as tempting as that is, since at this point, the parents have already completely failed if ADHD boy/girl is that much of a turd in class and they can't stop it, then I'm all for pumping that kid full of whatever tranquilizer is needed so that the other 29 in class can learn.

I'm torn between the teacher in me and the parent/human side of me...


As a parent, the true mark of disciplinarian failure is to have a kid that goes onto meds to control the behavior that the parents can not and I think it's wrong as a parent/human to put kids on that crap. As a teacher, I beg for meds for unruly kids.

Meds are the quick, easy answer to a larger parental problem. It's not the right way to fix it, it just masks the problem. But as a teacher, I'm all for masking as I can't 'fix' 12 years of bad parenting in the 200 hours I actually deal with this kid.

[Unregistered]

Do all 150 of your students have IEP's? I thought you were talking about 1 student.

My point about the first grade teacher was to use your imagination, your college education, and come up with a solution. Spend as much energy coming up with a viable solution as you do getting around what you need to do. It's just something to think about. You might be happier using your talents for good.

One last thought, it's not your job to "agree" with the IEP. It's your job to follow it. Just go to work and do what you are being paid to do. It's what everyone with a job does. I don't agree with everything I am asked to do on my job, but the world is not all about me. I'm not trying to slam you, just offer a different perspective to looking at life.

I just discoverd this site. I think I'm a couple of years late on this reply..but here goes.
First of all, Choc is NOT being paid to supply students with pencils, paper, and the whole "school supply list" thing. Parents do need to take a little responsibility for their children.

I am an elementary teacher with almost 20 years in the system. I taught SPED one of those 20 yrs. I had 7th - 10th grade students. Out of 18 students that I served, in my professional opinion, only one needed SPED services. The others were simply in the system because they were behavior problems at home and at school...and their parents wanted that disability check every month! The girls in my class had it all figured out. There goal was to become pregnant so that they could get a check for their baby each month. They did not think about the consequences of having a child nor did they think that it would be THEIR responsibility to take care of that child. Isn't it amazing what SPED teaches some of our children?????

There are children in our schools that really need SPED services and the accommodations that go along with SPED. Sometimes, like Choc says, some accommodations are thrown in there that are unreal. It's not choc's (or any other teacher's) job to provide pencils/paper/school supplies to the students. That should be the parents' job. If that child ligitimately had a problem and could not keep up with his pencil, then the accommodation should have been worded so that the parents were responsible for supplying the pencils. Choc could have kept them in his desk for the student.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I just discoverd this site. I think I'm a couple of years late on this reply..but here goes.
First of all, Choc is NOT being paid to supply students with pencils, paper, and the whole "school supply list" thing. Parents do need to take a little responsibility for their children.

I am an elementary teacher with almost 20 years in the system. I taught SPED one of those 20 yrs. I had 7th - 10th grade students. Out of 18 students that I served, in my professional opinion, only one needed SPED services. The others were simply in the system because they were behavior problems at home and at school...and their parents wanted that disability check every month! The girls in my class had it all figured out. There goal was to become pregnant so that they could get a check for their baby each month. They did not think about the consequences of having a child nor did they think that it would be THEIR responsibility to take care of that child. Isn't it amazing what SPED teaches some of our children?????

There are children in our schools that really need SPED services and the accommodations that go along with SPED. Sometimes, like Choc says, some accommodations are thrown in there that are unreal. It's not choc's (or any other teacher's) job to provide pencils/paper/school supplies to the students. That should be the parents' job. If that child ligitimately had a problem and could not keep up with his pencil, then the accommodation should have been worded so that the parents were responsible for supplying the pencils. Choc could have kept them in his desk for the student.

Thanks, although the debate started a while back, it still rages on. But you got my point. I realize that IEP's are law, but in the US, laws have guidelines and can be declared unconstitutional. IEP's have no such guidelines.

What is to prevent an overzealous teacher who thinks SPED pass/fail rate reflects the SPED teacher from writing an accom that says

"Student must not receive below a D for a final average"
"student must be allowed to sit where ever they choose"
"no homework"
"not allowed to correct behavior"
"Student is allowed to have 30 minute class changes, instead of 5 minutes"
"teacher must allow teacher desk to be used by student"
"teacher must pay student everytime they arrive to class on time"
"student does not have to work on Friday's"


I know, those are rediculous sounding, but that's where we're headed. It wasn't that long ago that "Student is allowed to retest if they have a low test grade" sounded horrible, now, it's on every IEP written.

[Unregistered]

That kid you refused to proved the pencil for at the beginning of the class? Did he ever learn to remember to bring a pencil in after having you provide it only at the end of class? I read on one of your posts here that you were trying to teach him something about that, that somehow by providing it at the end would help him remember it. Did that ever work out for you and that kid?

[Unregistered]

I meant to say "provided"...wrote "proved" by mistake...please don't crucify me for fingers that move faster than my brain

[Unregistered]

let me try again....how about "provide"...that makes more sense...put the dunce cap on me

[Unregistered]

Why in the world would someone write those "demands" in an IEP in the first place? Those didn’t sound like accommodations, but more like demands. We need to keep in mind that we must keep our students accountable. In other words, they can get their own books, pencils, etc. That's part of getting ready for the next class. Of course we want to set them up for success, but taking away the responsibility that even a 1st grader has, is setting them up for failure.

I'm not sure I like Mr. Chocolate's demeanor, but I do understand his concerns. I'm in ESE and have been for 16 years. I would never "baby" a child in an IEP like the one mentioned. However, if it was due to a child not having the ability to do such things, then that would be understandable
.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Why in the world would someone write those "demands" in an IEP in the first place? Those didn’t sound like accommodations, but more like demands. We need to keep in mind that we must keep our students accountable. In other words, they can get their own books, pencils, etc. That's part of getting ready for the next class. Of course we want to set them up for success, but taking away the responsibility that even a 1st grader has, is setting them up for failure.

I'm not sure I like Mr. Chocolate's demeanor, but I do understand his concerns. I'm in ESE and have been for 16 years. I would never "baby" a child in an IEP like the one mentioned. However, if it was due to a child not having the ability to do such things, then that would be understandable
.

I agree with you in the fact that if this IEP was for a kid that was severely mentally or physically handicapped, I would have no problem with this IEP. I did mention to the parent that I found it very curious that a young man who had such issues with a pencil and paper had no problems remembering to bring his cell phone and/or iPod.

Like I said, this was an "inherited" IEP from another school that he transferred to us with. When we were doing the annual review/renewal, we had no intentions (the teachers that were on the IEP team) of renewing that accommodation. Parents got upset. They ended up transferring the young man to another school during the process. I'm not sure if they got that accom. at the other school or not, but he was no longer our problem.

[Unregistered]

They ended up transferring the young man to another school during the process. I'm not sure if they got that accom. at the other school or not, but he was no longer our problem.

well let's just thank God that he is no longer your problem. Thank you God.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

well let's just thank God that he is no longer your problem. Thank you God.

Yep, I do, now I don't have to take money earmarked in my personal budget for my daughter's school supplies to support your responsibilities. The way I look at it, you had the fun in conceiving him, you get to foot the bill. But I know, that's a horrible outlook to have :rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

I seriously doubt that you were to do anything more than to hand that CHILD a pencil. I seriously doubt it was your responsibility to buy the pencil. You definitely have a reading comprehension problem and shows in most of your posts. I also notice you never offer any advice to help students learn but rather slam any idea that is given. I don't know, but I bet most of your students lose having you as a teacher. I bet most of them don't like you either. Unless you have pets.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Who buys the pencil that I am supposed to "give" them?

and I'm not worried if kids like me. that's not my job, it's to educate them, not be their friends.

and yes, I have pets.

[Unregistered]

You idiot, what you previously slammed St.LouisBlue for you just readily admitted to doing yourself--if you are going tospout bulls***, then at least be consistent throughout UR posts. Are you this stupid?

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

what did I say that St. Louis does?

I don't give pencils because I refuse to buy them out of my own pocket

[YEAHRIGHT]

How can one teach a kid responsibility if we're the ones that have to dole out supplies?

When you come to work, does your boss have your shirt and pants washed and pressed for you?

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

How can one teach a kid responsibility if we're the ones that have to dole out supplies?

When you come to work, does your boss have your shirt and pants washed and pressed for you?
that's what a wife is for :p but she sure as heck ain't my boss :D

[Unregistered]

In my experience, teacher like you and yeahright don't know how to teach responsibility, you just hold kids responsible. there is a difference. seems like neither one of you can accept responsibility either. hopeless. your behavior is no more acceptable than anyone one you slam. don't kid yourself.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

it doesn't matter though, I have tenure :D:D

[Unregistered]

Chocolate NO, sounds like just cause you have tenure, you think you can just sit back and continue being a horrible teacher. It is evident that you are, indeed, a horrible teacher. Don't kid yourself, jerk-------I have seen two tenured teachers in my district canned. Now, go stroke those feathers.........

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Chocolate NO, sounds like just cause you have tenure, you think you can just sit back and continue being a horrible teacher. It is evident that you are, indeed, a horrible teacher. Don't kid yourself, jerk-------I have seen two tenured teachers in my district canned. Now, go stroke those feathers.........

so long as they don't find a live girl or a dead boy in my car, I'm good. Plus, I don't do drugs. So all you have is that I have opinions that are unpopular, and that doesn't get teachers with tenure fired.

keep thinking it will catch up with me if that helps you sleep better at night. :p

[YEAHRIGHT]

In my experience, teacher like you and yeahright don't know how to teach responsibility, you just hold kids responsible. there is a difference. seems like neither one of you can accept responsibility either. hopeless. your behavior is no more acceptable than anyone one you slam. don't kid yourself.

Statement of the year, "You just hold kids responsible." How dare I hold a kid responsible for bringing their own supplies. Do us a favor and sterilize yourself, then you won't raise irresponsible children. Unless you already have children....God help us

I'm there to teach. They are there to learn. I bring the tools necessary for teaching. They bring the tools necessary for learning.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Statement of the year, "You just hold kids responsible." How dare I hold a kid responsible for bringing their own supplies. Do us a favor and sterilize yourself, then you won't raise irresponsible children. Unless you already have children....God help us

I'm there to teach. They are there to learn. I bring the tools necessary for teaching. They bring the tools necessary for learning. :D

you're right, How dare you :p:p

[YEAHRIGHT]

:D

you're right, How dare you :p:p

I'm expecting schools in the near future to replace disciplinary measures like detention and out of school suspension with group therapy and meditation :rolleyes: to further eliminate responsibility.

[Unregistered]

YR: Do humanity a favor and get your a** out of the classroom. You need a paycheck, not a vocation.

[YEAHRIGHT]

YR: Do humanity a favor and get your a** out of the classroom. You need a paycheck, not a vocation.

Do humanity a favor and don't be a teacher.

[Unregistered]

Good God, another Chocolate (YeahRight). It was bad enough with one, now there are two of them. I need constructiveness and people who leave this sort of banter to high school girls, so I am going to another forum. Adios.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Good God, another Chocolate (YeahRight). It was bad enough with one, now there are two of them. I need constructiveness and people who leave this sort of banter to high school girls, so I am going to another forum. Adios.

don't worry, we're at all of those, too :p

[Unregistered]

Wanna bet? I can name at least three other teacher forums that you haven't infiltrated yet. Now, be the big guy and go try to find them...........

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

is this a trolling challenge? :p:p:p

oh boy, I love trolling sites into closure. Of course, being that you won't register here, makes it hard to verify when you cry for mercy later

Ask Chef Dave ;)

[Unregistered]

How is it that forums always devolve into bashings?

I'm am an Art Ed student and need some help here, so could we drop the name-calling please?

Okay, so in a case study I am working on, I am addressing a student who fairly obviously has autism or some other form of ASD, yet the only disability he has on his IEP is SLD Language Impaired. I find this odd, but the implications are kind of worrying me. He lags developmentally of course, and I'm concerned that it may be disadvantageous for him to lack the label of Asperger's, autism, etc. Otherwise he's just some kid that is 18 in 9th grade and draws Lilo and Stitch all the time. Now, his art teacher told me he is autistic, yet his IEP says SLD; is this inappropriate or illegal for the teacher to say? Would it be illegal if the teacher used that label to explain his exceptionality to his peers? Feed me your knowledge please!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

it's unethical for the teacher to discuss a child's label with other students.

a teacher also can not simply assign a label or recommend services because a school system can be required to provide it.

We had a teacher say that a kid should be on ritalin in a teacher parent conference and guess what, we had to provide it then

[Unregistered]

How is it that forums always devolve into bashings?

I'm am an Art Ed student and need some help here, so could we drop the name-calling please?

Okay, so in a case study I am working on, I am addressing a student who fairly obviously has autism or some other form of ASD, yet the only disability he has on his IEP is SLD Language Impaired. I find this odd, but the implications are kind of worrying me. He lags developmentally of course, and I'm concerned that it may be disadvantageous for him to lack the label of Asperger's, autism, etc. Otherwise he's just some kid that is 18 in 9th grade and draws Lilo and Stitch all the time. Now, his art teacher told me he is autistic, yet his IEP says SLD; is this inappropriate or illegal for the teacher to say? Would it be illegal if the teacher used that label to explain his exceptionality to his peers? Feed me your knowledge please!

It's not unusual for the IEP to NOT have a list of medical diagnoses that the student has. The diagnosis of ASD or autism is a medical diagnosis. On the IEP, there is the classification of SLD/Language Impaired because that is what the school testing showed. Schools cannot diagnose autism, only educational issues such as SLD. A student with dyslexia is also shown on their IEP as SLD.

No, it would not be legal to discuss someone's medical diagnosis with other students.

[Unregistered]

How is it that forums always devolve into bashings?

I'm am an Art Ed student and need some help here, so could we drop the name-calling please?
Now, his art teacher told me he is autistic, yet his IEP says SLD; is this inappropriate or illegal for the teacher to say? Would it be illegal if the teacher used that label to explain his exceptionality to his peers? Feed me your knowledge please!

I don't think it would hurt, if you are indeed truly being true, to address his exceptionality as being "like" a person with aspergers or whatever.

[Unregistered]

Chocolate,

I have been reading your replies for some time now and you are either a very STUPID person or writing these statements for attention.
:-[

He's not a real teacher. He is a sad lonely person who wants attention.

[Unregistered]

they taught me something too, they taught me, when they say the Cat 4 storm is coming for a city that's 20 ft below sea level..... LEAVE


Do the children of the area a favor and don't leave next time.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Do the children of the area a favor and don't leave next time.

when are the dates of these quotes you are pulling from? it sounds like what i would say, so I have no doubt that i did, I just can't remember it anymore.

C-N-O is my reference to Hurricane Katrina in 04 and it's been awhile since I've made reference to that storm on here.

[Unregistered]

or at the very least, interpret them to my advantage since I do know that refusal to follow can cost me my job...









For the reduction of work accom-I reduce everyone's work. Then because we get finished more quickly I teach a second lesson. The kids end up doing the same amount of work but they are not as overwhelmed because they never see a huge assignment. I think this goes with the spirit of the accom. if not with the letter.

To often sped teachers get caught up in rhetoric and legal speak. It isn't much of a shocker that a group of people who are rarely held responsible for student achievement pay more attention to a legal document then to the student's learning.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

For the reduction of work accom-I reduce everyone's work. Then because we get finished more quickly I teach a second lesson. The kids end up doing the same amount of work but they are not as overwhelmed because they never see a huge assignment. I think this goes with the spirit of the accom. if not with the letter.




that's what I do anyways

[Unregistered]

that's what I do anyways








Exactly. Good teaching is good teaching. If a lesson is well designed you shouldn't have to change it for just one kid. Teaching is all about percentages. I know that if I represent part of the lesson in a visual way then a percentage of my students will get it. I also know that if I repeat the information out-loud several times a different percentage will get it. The key is not making sure that every teaching strategy you use works for every child, but that you have used a variety of strategies.

[Unregistered]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IEP_guide/links

ask mom to help if she is able and there is a tax credit to claim as well


I was an ESE teacher for 3 years. I'm not now (although technically, I have all the ESE kids since Social Studies doesn't have a pullout class. I have every ESE kid mixed into my reg ed classes). In my state, you have an ESE teacher, parent, reg ed teacher sign.

But responding to your hypothetical... where does it stop, if I have to provide supplies, why don't they just say "regular ed teacher must provide $10 for pencils per paycheck? When does it become illegal. If I have to spend $$ to provide something for them, they can kiss my rump. I ain't going to do it. File a grievance.

If they said they provide it, I give a space, that's better, although, it's still a bit on the retarded side.

Besides, it's the student's job to pass or fail, not mine. I provide the information in a fair manner, to everyone equally. It's like when I coach. I provide the info to everyone equally, but not everyone picks it up the at the same rate, and I start the ones who pick it up the best and keep providing it equally to everyone. In sports, if you want to get better, YOU have to work harder, not the coach. I can't win for you. I can't pass for you either.

[Unregistered]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IEP_guide/links

ask mom to help if she is able and there is a tax credit to claim as well







Why should you have to ask a mom to send supplies with her kid? All the other parents do it as a mtter of course.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

ask mom to help if she is able and there is a tax credit to claim as well

political correctness prevents me from asking the true question in this situation, and that is....

if you can't raise your kid or provide for them, why didn't you get dad to wrap his jimmy however many years ago you didn't think of the consequences of your night of fun

[Unregistered]

Responding to: "if you can't raise your kid or provide for them, why didn't you get dad to wrap his jimmy however many years ago you didn't think of the consequences of your night of fun "

Why not just go all out and terminate any child born with "deficiencies"? I'm sure many parents do not opt-in for a child with special needs...

[Unregistered]

Responding to: "if you can't raise your kid or provide for them, why didn't you get dad to wrap his jimmy however many years ago you didn't think of the consequences of your night of fun "

Why not just go all out and terminate any child born with "deficiencies"? I'm sure many parents do not opt-in for a child with special needs...






I think Choc was refering to adult's with parenting disabilities-not the actual kids.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Responding to: "if you can't raise your kid or provide for them, why didn't you get dad to wrap his jimmy however many years ago you didn't think of the consequences of your night of fun "

Why not just go all out and terminate any child born with "deficiencies"? I'm sure many parents do not opt-in for a child with special needs...

the only special need these kids have are special needs for a parent who can parent.

kids become what their parents are (or aren't)

I can deal with real special needs, I won't deal with kids who are only deemed special needs because they have learned laziness taught to them by a 'parent' that can't parent.

[Unregistered]

I understand that some of the accomadations are out of control, but do you really think that that child made his own IEP? There is NO reason what so ever that you should treat children with that kind of hostility. If that is the kind of teacher you are then maybe you should find another job. You should try to help all of your students...NOT just the ones who do not need help!

[BigDaddyTeacher]

I understand that some of the accomadations are out of control, but do you really think that that child made his own IEP? There is NO reason what so ever that you should treat children with that kind of hostility. If that is the kind of teacher you are then maybe you should find another job. You should try to help all of your students...NOT just the ones who do not need help!

the only special need these kids have are special needs for a parent who can parent. Kids become what their parents are (or aren't)
I can deal with real special needs, I won't deal with kids who are only deemed special needs because they have learned laziness taught to them by a 'parent' that can't parent.

(sorry, CNO, needed to step in here)
Unreg, even I know that children don't make their own IEPs. They are a product of the [sometimes] perceived learning problems discovered through testing, observation, etc. HOWEVER...some administrators/parents want to push a kid into and IEP situation when one is not warranted.

For Example...
let's say, for argument's sake, we have a student that is chronically truant. I'm lucky if he's in class 1 day out of 10. He shows up yesterday, after being absent for 18 days. He's had meetings with 'people' at the school...and they're pushing for him to get an IEP. Now, I was not aware that "ditching school" constituted a learning problem. As Chocolate says, he just needs "a parent who can parent" and explain the consequences of his actions.

[Unregistered]

I suspect after having gone through and read a good deal of this thread that Mr. Chocolate is enjoying himself entirely too much. I believe he gets a thrill out of antagonizing the rest of the people on the thread. Unfortunately there are people in the world who, when they are anonymous, say whatever they wish and Chocolate sounds like one of these people It should be noted that this personality type is generally unhappy, has few friends, very low self esteem and fit the 'bully' profile of a third grader. I suspect that the person behind Chocolate deserves pity rather than anger.

[Unregistered]

I want to first say that I work for attorneys that handle I.E.P cases and it IS most definetely against the law not to follow. They are to be READ carefully and FOLLOWED. It doesn't matter if the next teacher agrees or has his/her own interpretation of it. it is a legal document.

That being said, I have to agree with Mr. Chocolate. My child has ADD (inattention type) and LD (working memory issues). She wants to learn and is a VERY hard worker. Teachers always tell me they wish they had 100 like her. My husband and I both are constantly working with her. We feel learning doesn't stop at school. We keep ourselves involved. Although we're very giving to our child, we expect alot too.She knows school work is a huge priority. Iagree about test retaking. Last year was our 1st I.E.P. I'm still not sure if I want her retaking the test. Right now they have this "fix and return" and I'm not crazy abouy iy. I do stress that I don't have that big of a problem w/it as long as it's clarified by the teacher that she understands what she's correcting. I don't want her being this person of color who is passed along without being fully deserving of it. If i decide for her to retake a test, I want to make certain she is DEFINETELY be ready for it and it will be only once. Because of her memory and distraction issues, I do plan to have it put in her I.E.P that she sits up front. You are right Chocolate no one ever specifies it. For my child the front benefits her learning, not the middle,back orside. Plus each teacher could interpret that differently. I also requested assigments for tests be given to her at least 3 days prior to the test and shorter test. To us right now early in the game quality vs quantity should be the focus. As long as she knows the conce.pts. I stressed that i do mot mean thje tests/quizzes should be simpler, just shortened working our way up to more as she progress and hopefully make the transition where all classes are mainstreamed. She has processing deficits, so to give her 40-70 questions the day before a test is very detremental to her. as much as she wouldn't want to, the pressure will cause her to guess after so many questions. I told the teacher I want my child to be challenged, but comfortable. Comfortable meaning she seems to thrive in smaller groups, less disteractions. i realize like Chocolate says in the real world there are less accommodations and he is SOright. This is why for my child she is 12 in 6th grade, we talk about this will not always be. She is working her way up to the big reality, but as her parents it is our respnsibility to make sure she is NOT rushed to it before she is ready. The goal here is making sure the child is successful with parents AND teachers REALLY working together for the good of the child, there's not much that child cannot do. Chocolate I get the feelin that although you're a bit tough ( I do like that), you seem to really care and just being honest and realistic). Although I expext her teachers to do their jobs and follow the I.E.P (which hers is as specific as it can be) and be somewhat patient and fair,I don't want my child's hand held aand babied. She is there to learn.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I suspect after having gone through and read a good deal of this thread that Mr. Chocolate is enjoying himself entirely too much. I believe he gets a thrill out of antagonizing the rest of the people on the thread. Unfortunately there are people in the world who, when they are anonymous, say whatever they wish and Chocolate sounds like one of these people It should be noted that this personality type is generally unhappy, has few friends, very low self esteem and fit the 'bully' profile of a third grader. I suspect that the person behind Chocolate deserves pity rather than anger.

is that your professional diagnosis Dr. Katz? lol

I want to first say that I work for attorneys that handle I.E.P cases and it IS most definetely against the law not to follow. They are to be READ carefully and FOLLOWED. It doesn't matter if the next teacher agrees or has his/her own interpretation of it. it is a legal document.

I do follow IEP's down to the letter of the law. Screw the intention if the intention is to enable a kid's (and parent's) laziness. I followed the "must provide pen and paper" accom. on the IEP. I gave him the supplies at the end of class for the next day's use. If they wanted it provided at the beginning of class, they should have said that. My interpretation was at the end of class.

Chocolate I get the feelin that although you're a bit tough ( I do like that), you seem to really care and just being honest and realistic). Although I expext her teachers to do their jobs and follow the I.E.P (which hers is as specific as it can be) and be somewhat patient and fair,I don't want my child's hand held aand babied. She is there to learn.

realistic is what I shoot for. All too often, when IEP's are written at the end of the year, they are written to pacify the parent since the IEP takes affect the next school year when the teachers who are writting them, don't have to do the accoms.

YOu want unlimited retests.... you want the IEP to read "Child will retest until a passing grade is achieved"....

Fine.... write it on there and get the parent out of here. I don't have to deal with it, what do I care.


Personally, I blame the previous year teacher more for not standing up for what's right, and caving in simply because they aren't the ones dealing with it.

[Kuntakain2]

I am a special education teacher, not anywhere near New Orleans, but was looking on the internet about how to write better goals for students I.E.P.'s, and ran across this site.

I have read almost all of the posts, and find it interesting that so many people bash Chocolate so harshly. I have to believe that those of you that bash sir Chocolate are intimidated by actually thinking outside the box, and or actually think that I.E.P.'s have no right to be interpreted in what the way they are written. I have been in Special Education for 4 years now, came from a regular education class with 4 years teaching experience prior to this, and really do question the intent of some of the I.E.P.'s that I have had to re-write as the new case manager having a student added to my case load.

There are certainly goals that have been written that have their place, especially for the severely disabled, but there are quite a few other goals that have no place or are so outrageous that they make no sense and are only left to be interpreted by the individual teacher. Yes, I agree that preferential seating would mean seating near the front, but then write the goal that way, instead of leaving it up to the teacher to determine what preferential means!

I am challenged by Chocolate's postings, in that, I would not want him on the staff where I teach, but am now thinking outside the box for writing I.E.P. goals, accommodations, and modifications for students on my caseload that would not be left for individual interpretations. Being more specific with goals, such as what preferential seating means, (i.e., in the front two rows of seats, near non-special education students, or next to the dumpster if that's what is best for the student to not interfere with the other students education; or supplying school supplies provided by the special education department, and or school office supply room, at the beginning of class when those supplies will be used during that class period, etc.) is a great idea, and then would not leave it to be determined by the individual teacher what was meant by preferential seating (you have to admit, that is pretty vague)!

Most of the bashers of sir Chocolate would have to agree with the fact that many I.E.P. goals, accommodations, and modifications are cookiecutter written goals, many of which are used from student to student, meaning that only the name is changed from I.E.P. to I.E.P. They are not truly individualized as is required by it being named an I.E.P., and individualized education plan. I have found that many of the I.E.P.'s that I taken over case management for, have not been very individualized. Some of which have been copied and pasted into another students I.E.P. with such lack of expertise that they still contain the name of the first individual somewhere in the I.E.P. (i.e., they didn't get Johnny's name put in place of Sally's in more than one place in the I.E.P. when they copied and pasted Sally's goals into Johnny's I.E.P.).

It is difficult to truly come up with individual goals in some cases, but being more specific really shouldn't be that difficult. I take Chocolate's posting as more of a challenge, rather than his being mean or needing to find another profession! Thanks for the challenge Chocolate!

Kuntakain2 out!

[Unregistered]

the only special need these kids have are special needs for a parent who can parent.

kids become what their parents are (or aren't)

I can deal with real special needs, I won't deal with kids who are only deemed special needs because they have learned laziness taught to them by a 'parent' that can't parent.

hello, mr. chocolate
i teach special ed in h.s. and i couldn't agree with you more! i am 100% for giving kids the tools they need to be successful in school ( thought that was the whole purpose for sped) unfortunately, it has become an excuse for laziness, irresponsibility, and outrageous behavior in a classroom setting. oh and i can't forget the social security checks for the parents! i frequently receive referrals for kids in 9th, 10th, 11th, and even 12th grade. it is ludicrous to think that a child that has been in any school district in the U.S.A for even 9 school years would all of a sudden develop a disability?!? really?? a goal must be skill building, in order to participate and make progress in the general curriculum, life of the school!!! what exactly is the area of need ONLY! many parents and their kids are in for a rude awakening in the real world, can't think of any careers where a boss is willing to overlook incomplete work, tardiness, and lack of social skills...silly me guess these kids could just hand their boss their IEP! good luck with that!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I am a special education teacher, not anywhere near New Orleans, but was looking on the internet about how to write better goals for students I.E.P.'s, and ran across this site.

I have read almost all of the posts, and find it interesting that so many people bash Chocolate so harshly. I have to believe that those of you that bash sir Chocolate are intimidated by actually thinking outside the box, and or actually think that I.E.P.'s have no right to be interpreted in what the way they are written. I have been in Special Education for 4 years now, came from a regular education class with 4 years teaching experience prior to this, and really do question the intent of some of the I.E.P.'s that I have had to re-write as the new case manager having a student added to my case load.

There are certainly goals that have been written that have their place, especially for the severely disabled, but there are quite a few other goals that have no place or are so outrageous that they make no sense and are only left to be interpreted by the individual teacher. Yes, I agree that preferential seating would mean seating near the front, but then write the goal that way, instead of leaving it up to the teacher to determine what preferential means!

I am challenged by Chocolate's postings, in that, I would not want him on the staff where I teach, but am now thinking outside the box for writing I.E.P. goals, accommodations, and modifications for students on my caseload that would not be left for individual interpretations. Being more specific with goals, such as what preferential seating means, (i.e., in the front two rows of seats, near non-special education students, or next to the dumpster if that's what is best for the student to not interfere with the other students education; or supplying school supplies provided by the special education department, and or school office supply room, at the beginning of class when those supplies will be used during that class period, etc.) is a great idea, and then would not leave it to be determined by the individual teacher what was meant by preferential seating (you have to admit, that is pretty vague)!

Most of the bashers of sir Chocolate would have to agree with the fact that many I.E.P. goals, accommodations, and modifications are cookiecutter written goals, many of which are used from student to student, meaning that only the name is changed from I.E.P. to I.E.P. They are not truly individualized as is required by it being named an I.E.P., and individualized education plan. I have found that many of the I.E.P.'s that I taken over case management for, have not been very individualized. Some of which have been copied and pasted into another students I.E.P. with such lack of expertise that they still contain the name of the first individual somewhere in the I.E.P. (i.e., they didn't get Johnny's name put in place of Sally's in more than one place in the I.E.P. when they copied and pasted Sally's goals into Johnny's I.E.P.).

It is difficult to truly come up with individual goals in some cases, but being more specific really shouldn't be that difficult. I take Chocolate's posting as more of a challenge, rather than his being mean or needing to find another profession! Thanks for the challenge Chocolate!

Kuntakain2 out!

so basically, you aren't trying to change what's wrong, but simply, making a more bullet proof IEP, huh?

What happens if I have an IEP that says "front 2 row" seating. Sounds great, until you realize that if I have 15 kids with IEP's (I had this 3 years ago) that have the same accom. So now you have painted ME into a corner. I had 5 rows, 5 front seats, and 5 2nd row seats. Uh-oh, I have 5 kids that I am breaking the law and not accomodating for. No problem, it's not you having to do the accoms, it's me.

Or quite the reverse. I now have 35 desks in my room. I have an aisle right down the middle and 2 sets of desks facing inward. I have 10 "front row" seats now. I can have a kid sitting in the front row and be in the back of the class. Was that your intent? I could have put him in the 4th seat in the row 1, much closer to where I teach from, but I can't because then I would be violating this child's IEP

Writing IEP's that dictate who the kid can sit by is something I would also make noise about in class. I set up seating charts in my class. If IEP boy disrupts all the regular ed kids, I'm seperating him so the regular ed kids can work. Why is IEP boy's educational needs more important than non IEP student's?

[Kuntakain2]

so basically, you aren't trying to change what's wrong, but simply, making a more bullet proof IEP, huh?

What happens if I have an IEP that says "front 2 row" seating. Sounds great, until you realize that if I have 15 kids with IEP's (I had this 3 years ago) that have the same accom. So now you have painted ME into a corner. I had 5 rows, 5 front seats, and 5 2nd row seats. Uh-oh, I have 5 kids that I am breaking the law and not accomodating for. No problem, it's not you having to do the accoms, it's me.

Or quite the reverse. I now have 35 desks in my room. I have an aisle right down the middle and 2 sets of desks facing inward. I have 10 "front row" seats now. I can have a kid sitting in the front row and be in the back of the class. Was that your intent? I could have put him in the 4th seat in the row 1, much closer to where I teach from, but I can't because then I would be violating this child's IEP

Writing IEP's that dictate who the kid can sit by is something I would also make noise about in class. I set up seating charts in my class. If IEP boy disrupts all the regular ed kids, I'm seperating him so the regular ed kids can work. Why is IEP boy's educational needs more important than non IEP student's?

I'd like to think that I am willing to correct what is wrong with outrageously written goals, accommodations, and modifications. However, you make a good point, that it seems like I was just trying to make them more bullet proof. I'll have to think about that a little more. Like I said, I like the challenge that you are presenting, and will look to write more appropriate goals, accommodations, and modifications.

I said in my previous post that IEP goals, accommodations, and modifications are all too often cookiecutter written goals - not truly individualized - which I believe is wrong! I agree, preferential seating is something that I have a problem with, but why shouldn't a student that is on an IEP get the help they need to succeed, as long as the IEP team is willing to look at writing appropriate goals for the situation? Are you of the assumption that there are no appropriately written goals, accommodations, or modifications? If not, please provide some that you feel are appropriately written? Such as having "preferential seating" or it's more bullet proofed version for only those students under the classification of 'deaf or hard of hearing'.

Just for your information, I too agree that there are students that could benefit from better home lives, and that as educators we have no control over that, but there are some disabilities that have nothing to do with what their home live consists of (i.e., a good old swift kick in the rear end would do some kids a world of good, but there are others that have great supportive parents that help them when they get home from school with their homework - these kids work their tails off yet they truly have a learning disability and struggle with learning, or a student that was in an accident that now has a Traumatic Brain Injury that needs modifications made so that re-learning can take place). Are we not in education to help every student learn?

Lastly, your analogy of front row seating and your interpretation of the goal is fine as long as one can defend that they are not "breaking the law" as you say. For example your "reverse" situation of 35 desks in the room with an aisle right down the middle and two sets of desks facing inward - being that there are only 2 rows of desks, from where this teacher would teach - assuming that they wouldn't just stand in front of the room by the white board - they would actually walk up and down the aisle to do their teaching, then you have created a great learning environment for all the students, not just those that have an IEP stating that they have seating in the front 2 rows of seats. Saying that a student should have "preferential seating" says nothing about the front 2 rows of seats closest to the board, unless one interprets it that way? I suppose that one could make the accommodation of "front 2 row of desks" more bullet proof, as you say, by saying "front 2 row of desks from where the majority (80% or more) of instruction occurs", because if a teacher set up their seating arrangement as in this situation and didn't walk up and down the aisle with the seats facing inward, then what would be the point of facing the desks inward, so that no student could see the teacher? Don't forget, I agree, "preferential seating" stated that way, isn't necessarily a very good accommodation.

I almost forgot - you asked, "Why is IEP boy's educational needs more important than non IEP student's?" I don't know that answer to that question, but I can tell you that someone somewhere thought that it was. Hence forth the federal law that states that students on an IEP are the only students entitled to FAPE - a Free Appropriate Public Education. I don't think they intended that to mean that non IEP students' education was any less important, but that apparently their education for some reason doesn't always have to be appropriate! You got me? I'll leave that up to you to interpret however you want to.

Kuntakain2 out!

[Unregistered]

"Are you of the assumption that there are no appropriately written goals, accommodations, or modifications? If not, please provide some that you feel are appropriately written? "

A bad mod is any that actually hinders the student's learning. Some examples:

1. Extended time during testing-more time doesn't help you to do something that you are not able to do, but it does cause the kid to miss out on lessons the other kids are getting.

2. Preferrential seating-most inclusion classrooms contain ED and MR students. ED students love to bully the verbally challenged MR kids so they must sit on opposite ends of the room. The teacher usually places the ED student next to him/er to protect the rest of the class.

3.Use of calculator-kids don't bother to memorize math facts when they have free use of a calculator. This is a huge disadvantage for them later on in life.

4. Lecture notes from a teacher-this teaches the child that s/he does not need to pay attention during class.

A good accom. helps students to organize their thinking. Some examples:

1. Problem solving steps-students get to use a small card with problem solving steps written out, this helps them to approach a word problem systematically and keeps them from becoming overwhelmed.

2. Study steps-write out the steps that the student should take when studying for a test*note*the child does the actual studying-you make a generic ways they can study-like reading the captions in a textbook.

3. Use of reading guides-strip of paper to help them keep their place while reading.

4. Use of timeline or other organizer while writing

5. Use of editing guide-a bulleted list that reminds them what to look for when editing.




A bad mod is one that inflates the student's grade. Some examples:

1. Reduce number of answer choices-this only helps students who are guessing.

2. Review answers to test and then retest-blatant school sponsered cheating, this does not show improved mastery of the subject.

3. Reduction of test questions-this usually leads teachers to cut all of the application Qs and leave the basic Qs.

A good mod reflects the differences in the sped student's goals vs gen ed. Some examples:

1. Limit the number of questions on a page-this keeps them from becoming overwhelmed.

2. Giving a reading test over a lower grade level-this allows assessment to line up with iep goals (goal-read on 3rd grade level by end of year-test on 3rd grade level)



Bad goals are unrealistic. Two examples leap to mind:

1. Too many goals, if I have 12 sped students (plus 12 reg ed) and each has 10 goals, then there is absolutely no way to meet the goals.

2. Fantasy goals-I once had a MR student who was still learning how to count and regroup-his goals were all about multiplication-clearly some sped teachers fantasy.

Good goals are realistic, simple, and based on skills. Some examples:

1. TLW read on a second grade level by the end of the year.

2. TLW be able to write a well organized paper that contains at least three paragraphs, 20 complete sentences, and fewer than 6 grammatical errors.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

"Are you of the assumption that there are no appropriately written goals, accommodations, or modifications? If not, please provide some that you feel are appropriately written? "

A bad mod is any that actually hinders the student's learning. Some examples:

1. Extended time during testing-more time doesn't help you to do something that you are not able to do, but it does cause the kid to miss out on lessons the other kids are getting.

2. Preferrential seating-most inclusion classrooms contain ED and MR students. ED students love to bully the verbally challenged MR kids so they must sit on opposite ends of the room. The teacher usually places the ED student next to him/er to protect the rest of the class.

3.Use of calculator-kids don't bother to memorize math facts when they have free use of a calculator. This is a huge disadvantage for them later on in life.

4. Lecture notes from a teacher-this teaches the child that s/he does not need to pay attention during class.

A good accom. helps students to organize their thinking. Some examples:

1. Problem solving steps-students get to use a small card with problem solving steps written out, this helps them to approach a word problem systematically and keeps them from becoming overwhelmed.

2. Study steps-write out the steps that the student should take when studying for a test*note*the child does the actual studying-you make a generic ways they can study-like reading the captions in a textbook.

3. Use of reading guides-strip of paper to help them keep their place while reading.

4. Use of timeline or other organizer while writing

5. Use of editing guide-a bulleted list that reminds them what to look for when editing.




A bad mod is one that inflates the student's grade. Some examples:

1. Reduce number of answer choices-this only helps students who are guessing.

2. Review answers to test and then retest-blatant school sponsered cheating, this does not show improved mastery of the subject.

3. Reduction of test questions-this usually leads teachers to cut all of the application Qs and leave the basic Qs.

A good mod reflects the differences in the sped student's goals vs gen ed. Some examples:

1. Limit the number of questions on a page-this keeps them from becoming overwhelmed.

2. Giving a reading test over a lower grade level-this allows assessment to line up with iep goals (goal-read on 3rd grade level by end of year-test on 3rd grade level)



Bad goals are unrealistic. Two examples leap to mind:

1. Too many goals, if I have 12 sped students (plus 12 reg ed) and each has 10 goals, then there is absolutely no way to meet the goals.

2. Fantasy goals-I once had a MR student who was still learning how to count and regroup-his goals were all about multiplication-clearly some sped teachers fantasy.

Good goals are realistic, simple, and based on skills. Some examples:

1. TLW read on a second grade level by the end of the year.

2. TLW be able to write a well organized paper that contains at least three paragraphs, 20 complete sentences, and fewer than 6 grammatical errors.

wow, I could definately do your accomodations. I haven't agreed more with a SPED teacher since I was a SPED teacher.

[Unregistered]

wow, I could definately do your accomodations. I haven't agreed more with a SPED teacher since I was a SPED teacher.







Unfortunately, I'm a regular ed teacher who feels passionately about sped. It is sad that most sped teachers care more about children's temporary emotional state than they do about the children's actual education.

A few weeks ago I received an insight into why so many sped teachers have difficulty teaching measureable skills. I was considering adding a sped endorsement to my certification so I took the practice test. I was surprised that the questions revolved around what kids should learn instead of how to teach the skills. Essentially, in my state, a person can become a sped teacher without showing any ability to teach academic skills. In other words, the most learning challenged kids get the least competent teachers.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

3 years ago, I had more sped kids in class than the sped teachers had.

Our main sped teacher's 1st period class.... everyone of the 15 he had in there were in my 6th period class. Plus, I had 18 reg. ed kids also mixed in.

[Unregistered]

The biggest probably is the whole concept of someone getting a college "degree" in special education. All teachers should have a degree in an academic subject. Individuals with a degree in special education are placed within a position of power within the school in which they make academic decisions even though they have no clue about being an academic teacher. This is why you get lamebrain items placed on IEPs. In addition, you won't find the spec ed caseworkers' name anywhere next to the kids name on their report card or standardized test score used to evaluate YOU

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

amen brother(sister)

that's my biggest gripe is the SPED teachers who determine what laws I follow, not what laws they follow. It's easy for a SPED teacher to appease a parent who thinks their kid needs their butt wiped accomodation placed on the IEP. After all, it's not the SPED teacher that has to do what's written. SPED teacher's job is to simply come in and tell me I'm wiping the wrong direction, or not good enough.

silly accoms would go away if SPED teachers had to get their hands dirty

[Unregistered]

I've been reading this string from the beginning, and I'm falling on Chocolate's side of the debate.

I have a child who is ADHD. We don't have him on and IEP, and I don't plan to do so. Why? Because I don't think enabling my son teaches him a darn thing.

Now - yes, there are students in dire need of an IEP. If a child has an autism-type condition, a brain injury, a seizure disorder, or some other truly challenging condition, then by all means, I believe in the IEP and its necessity. I am a teacher, and I am happy to help these students succeed.

But there is a difference between helping a student succeed and teaching a student how to remain helpless. I had a middle school student come in fifteen - FIFTEEN! - minutes late. When I asked for his pass, he told me to "go %$# yourself." I wrote him up, and as I was doing so, his assistant came in and told him to behave. She took his write up form and tossed it out. Nothing like being undermined to make you really irritated.

What did that assistant teach that student? That there are no consequences for being needlessly nasty to an authority figure.

We have to consider the purpose of school in the first place. We're preparing students for the world beyond school. The world outside has no IEPs and darn few accommodations. Love him or hate him, Chocolate sounds a lot like most bosses out there. Better students learn the consequences of stupid behavior in his classroom than in a courtroom.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

you have to expand on how the kid's assistant came in and threw out your writeup :confused: :confused:

Was it an admin, or a teacher, or a teacher's aide.

There would be a "you...me....hallway....now" directive and I would ask the assistant who the flip they thought they were to throw out my D.R."

[Unregistered]

It was a teacher's aide, and I was subbing. She came in, sat the student beside her (by now, he was in a fine snit of "I don't want to do this crap. You're not the real teacher. I ain't doing nothing you tell me" yada yada yada." The aide told him (in front of me) that it was "his choice" if he wanted to settle in or go to the office. When he settled (in her presence), she put the referral in the trash. I did the "you, me, hallway - now" thing, but she informed me that he was one of their "conduct disorder" students and that his IEP permitted him a certain amount of levity for behaviors he "couldn't control."

First of all, WTF is "conduct disorder?" I'm not that old (only 30), but in my day, a conduct disorder meant you hadn't learned how to behave in class and you got suspended. Alot. And you probably wouldn't succeed past high school (providing you didn't flunk out) when you told your boss to go f--- himself. No one bailed you out. So, yeah, I'm pretty irate about that one. Refused to go back to that school even though two teachers requested me to come back. If you can't support your subs, then don't expect me to help you.

OK - now that I've got THAT rant off my back... and now that I've probably offended lots of folks with soft spots for conduct disorder students... I guess my question aligns with Chocolate's: How far does it go? When does and IEP stop helping a student learn and instead teaches them how to get away with everything?