Special education is the downfall of education

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

because all we are doing, is not pushing our brightest to achieve their potential, instead, we are slowing down the class for the special needs kids whose parents insist that their baby should be in a 'normal' class.

So meanwhile, Johnny, who can't multiply past his 3's is in my kid's middle school math class doing nothing more than preventing the teacher, who is already stretched too thin to teach all 35 in his class, to answer questions like (why is it x= the number, why can't it be n= the number, or z, or q)

get the undesireables out of my kid's class.

Also, get the undesireables out of the class I teach. We have spent an entire semester on plotting hurricanes, if you can't do it by now, you need to be in the class with 2 teachers, a para, and 2 other students. YOu are either too slow to be in my class, or too lazy. Either way, get rid of the ones that are slowing the rest of the herd down.

A herd of gazelles in Africa are only as fast as it's slowest member, once he is killed by the lion, the herd speeds up

[jagnace]

What third world country are you from again? I can't believe the messages you have been sending in regards to teaching! Do you honestly think that students with disabilities have nothing to offer? Do you share your views with your collegues or just on this chat site? What if your child was born with some sort of disability? Would you put them up for adoption or lock them in a closet? I am feeling really lucky knowing that I will not be moving with my family to New Orleans anytime soon. I hope you are sharing your viewpoints with everyone around you because I am sure that someone will figure out that you need to be in a different profession - definitely not one that involves children or adults. Let's see-that leaves....

[Chocolate new orleans]

I think they do offer something to the world. The world needs garbage men, plumbers, mechanics, electricians. You know, jobs that don't require education in academia but rather, in training.

So why should a kid who is on a college track, be held back because Johnny is doomed to be a burger flipper?

[Unregistered]

Due to be a burger flipper because of educators like you.
You are pathetic and I think you should open your eyes and maybe learn from these kids.

[Unregistered]

Why would you even print something like this? Students who are have disabilities have a lot to offer the other students! These are just some of contributing factors that special education students bring to the classroom:hard work pays off, the world is not a perfect place, no one is perfect. patience is a virtue. The more advanced learners can peer tutor the students who need more assistance, which then in fact is a self-esteem booster for the more advanced learner. Peer-tutoring is usually a win/win situation for both students. Your statement is VERY OFFENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Why would you even print something like this? Students who are have disabilities have a lot to offer the other students! These are just some of contributing factors that special education students bring to the classroom:hard work pays off, the world is not a perfect place, no one is perfect. patience is a virtue. The more advanced learners can peer tutor the students who need more assistance, which then in fact is a self-esteem booster for the more advanced learner. Peer-tutoring is usually a win/win situation for both students. Your statement is VERY OFFENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

no, lower kids slow down faster moving students due to the fact that their negative behaviors (that were developed as defense mechanisms) are behaviors that others feed off of, even the faster ones.

[Chemfemme]

I'm not as anti-special ed as Choc, but he has a point. (though crassly put) I teach HS Chemistry -- not required to graduate, but required for the "recommended program" in my state. Every year, I have 2-4 spec. ed. students. Until this year, they have done well without sigificant mods -- in most cases, I've wondered why these kids are even classified as spec. ed. in the first place -- guess I don't understand all of the criteria. This year is a different matter. I have 3, all of whom haven't made above 50 on anything all year. One either sleeps or appears to be in a trance, another is spec. ed. and ESL, the third is -- well, the lights are out and nobody's home. What are these kids doing in Chemistry?! Their parents want them on the recommended program. And I am to "modify" so that they can "succeed"? Pass them and show on their transcripts that they passed HS Chemistry? I can't do it -- I won't. It's not fair to the other 20 kids in the class who are learning chemistry and are meeting the requirement through effort and learning. Hopefully, the spec.ed. kids will learn some science and benefit from being with their peers. But credit isn't going to happen -- and I refuse to give it away.

I have a real pet peeve about giving credit where none was earned -- be it the special ed kids, a "star" athletes who think they should get special favors because they can play with a ball really well, or parents who throw a fit and make every excuse in the world for Golden Boy in an attempt to get me to change a grade. 68? We'll talk extra credit, but 58? you gotta be kidding me! He needs to get his ************ in gear. That may sound like a hard-nosed approach, but I give my kids every chance and every break in the world -- tutoring on request, extra credit options, count their best test of the 6wks twice, a huge range and variety of "modalities" via lab, media, demo's, games, songs. My F rate is less than 10%, so apparently I'm getting this stuff across. And this is Chemistry -- I refuse to "dumb it down" below a reasonable minimum. Those who even slightly want to pass can do so. Which brings me to the spec. ed. Is there any rationale that would justify my giving these 3 kids credit? It's done in a lot of classes, I know. If it's a required class to graduate, OK I can see that to a point. But in either case, it is very discouraging to the kids that perform and achieve to see "free rides" given to some. I'm all for providing appropriate education for all kids, spec.ed. or not. But I also think it is unfair to short-change the faster kids because the snails pace that the slower ones require -- IEP mods. contribute to that.

but, hey -- that's just me

[Unregistered]

I think they do offer something to the world. The world needs garbage men, plumbers, mechanics, electricians. You know, jobs that don't require education in academia but rather, in training.

So why should a kid who is on a college track, be held back because Johnny is doomed to be a burger flipper?

Why don't you get in your time machine that I am sure some of you star students could invent and go be neighbors with Hitler because that's what you sound like.

By the way my husband is a mechanic and I know he makes more than you do. So be quiet with your self righteous self.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Why don't you get in your time machine that I am sure some of you star students could invent and go be neighbors with Hitler because that's what you sound like.

By the way my husband is a mechanic and I know he makes more than you do. So be quiet with your self righteous self.

I'd love to compare because teaching isn't my only means of income their honey.

Pro athletes make more $$ too, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to properly manage it due to lack of intelligence.

[Unregistered]

I'd love to compare because teaching isn't my only means of income their honey.



Their? I think you meant THERE HONEY!

Your intelligence (or lack thereof) is showing in many ways other than your message itself!

[Unregistered]

My brother was special ed who was mainstreamed and in his case, it didn't work. He was mercilessly teased, had low self-esteem, and barely graduated high school. I think some special ed. students can gain a lot from being around "normal" students, but not all of them. I am going into school counseling and see this problem all the time. Have you tried going around the parents? In my elementary school we are dealing with three students who are severely special ed but the parents are in denial. Two refuse to have their students tested and don't show up for SST's. As a result we are working with the school psych. to find help. We may even have to resort to reporting the parents to CPS for "neglect"- educational neglect and emotional neglect (these kids exhibit major behavioral problems due to their frustration and unhappiness). Just a thought.

I wish there had been more vocational training for my brother who could learn how to fix cars or plumbing since he wasn't college material. But there wasn't and he is struggling to survive in a world that has little patience for the mentally impaired. Too bad his wonderful spirit gets overlooked. If anything, please just be kind to these students. I know it is frustrating- I am getting my master's degree in a month and I have little patience teaching my brother simple things. But more than anything, these kids need love and affirmation. They know they are different and don't belong where they are placed. The last thing they need is to feel blamed for ruining their classmates education. That is why I am going into counseling- I have seen the aftermath of uncaring people on sensitive and impressionable students.

[Unregistered]

Wow - what anger. I think Mr. Chocolate might do well to remember that, unless we drop dead young, most of us are destined to become older and slow down physically and MENTALLY some day! I guess we should then be discarded in favor of the "smarter" people???

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

apples and oranges. ESE allows kids to develop a crutch that they will use for life and parents have found a way (labelling their child) to deflect any blame of bad parenting that would have befallen them in decades past, even though it is true.

[Unregistered]

I hope the first man who started this was joking because I cannot beleive he is a teacher. I wanted to post to Chemmfemme. You sound like a good teacher- do not let your 3 kids this year color your judgement. Actually, there are kids in your class who wear glasses- that is a learning difference which we Have a modification readily accessable for.These other kids ARE SMART.. Please look up the definition. In order for a child to be LD, they have to have an above average IQ. All of these kids are considered SPECIAL EDUCATION". The few who are "below average" are probaly the ones you have this year- and they are just a small percent on the bottom of the spectrum.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

if you are not severly handicapped/mentally challenged, then you need to be inthe mainstream doing mainstream work. Do you think a business will accomodate your every whim after you graduate? Why should we give them that crutch in school.

[Chemfemme]

I hope the first man who started this was joking because I cannot beleive he is a teacher. I wanted to post to Chemmfemme. You sound like a good teacher- do not let your 3 kids this year color your judgement. Actually, there are kids in your class who wear glasses- that is a learning difference which we Have a modification readily accessable for.These other kids ARE SMART.. Please look up the definition. In order for a child to be LD, they have to have an above average IQ. All of these kids are considered SPECIAL EDUCATION". The few who are "below average" are probaly the ones you have this year- and they are just a small percent on the bottom of the spectrum.

I understand where you are coming from and, fort the most part, I agree. As I said, most of the mainstreamed spec. ed. kids that have come my way have done fine -- I know these 3 are not typical. Thanks for the encouragement! :)

[Drewskie]

Choc, I'm a special ed student. been in the program for most of my life. I graduated high school. I go to the community college in my town. I happen to know some special ed students, who happen to have mental disabilities, and they are confined to a wheel chair, yet they are some the smartest kids I know. Know why, they beat the odds. People always look down on us special ed students. They say we'll never amount to anything. You and the rest of those people are wrong. Look at Bill Gates, He has a disability and was in special ed. So was Stephen Spielburg. Einstein had a form of Austism called aspbuirgers, the same disability that I have. There are so many special ed students that amounted to so much. Me, I am starting my own bussness and a freeware company, and I am only 20 years old. So don't say that Us special ed. students are worthless and will never amount to anything, because most special ed. student are smart than your dimwitted normal student

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

your special ed enabling has made your need to actually read what I said not necessary apparently. I refuse to accomodate for you now that you are in the real world because you choose NOT to read what has been typed earlier.

Good luck Einstein

[Unregistered]

I think they do offer something to the world. The world needs garbage men, plumbers, mechanics, electricians. You know, jobs that don't require education in academia but rather, in training.

So why should a kid who is on a college track, be held back because Johnny is doomed to be a burger flipper?

yet some of the smartest minds are those of the mentally handicapped or disabled

[Unregistered]

apples and oranges. ESE allows kids to develop a crutch that they will use for life and parents have found a way (labelling their child) to deflect any blame of bad parenting that would have befallen them in decades past, even though it is true.

so are you saying that my parent did bad parenting? Most parents of special ed. students turn out to be much better parent than those of normal students because they have a biiger challenge and most of the time they rise to meet the challenge. My parents were the best parent, tried their hardest to raise me and Look what happened: I graduated High school (by my own hard work and strife), I had it harder than the "normal" students, but I tiried my hardest and gave it my best. I didn't graduate because of special ed. I did it by myself, on my own will. Special ed just provided asistance with my trouble spots. Your such a biggot.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

yet some of the smartest minds are those of the mentally handicapped or disabled

Cream will always find a way to rise tothe top.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Chocolate_New_Orleans;19981]your special ed enabling has made your need to actually read what I said not necessary apparently.

Chocolate~
Are you sure you are a teacher, because that made no sense. Maybe your parents should have had an IEP called for you.
I have read many of your posts and honestly, I laugh out loud at how bad your spelling and writing really is.
I doubt you are a teacher and if you are, I would like to take bets on how many of your "typical" students go on to require remediation and or private tutoring!
Anybody care to place a bet?????

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

No IEP's for me since I was raised not to need a crutch in life. Go back to your room of 5 students and continue to flunk

[Unregistered]

Chocolate,

Your statements are completely inappropriate. Do you voice these thoughts to your colleagues, administrators, and the parents of your students? How on earth do you still have a job? I feel very sorry for the students you teach. I truly feel you must be a very cruel and unintelligible person or a person that like to get arise out of people. Use your free time to understand how to read an IEP (the vocabulary), to find a way to comprehend the importance of IEPS, to come up with lessons of how to differentiate activities for the various learning types of your students, and most importantly practice ways to model positve behaviors as well as a positive attitude for students. You must be horror show in the classroom! I feel very sorry for your students, they must regress terribly when they are in your class. What a waste of school year being placed with you. You are a disgrace to all teachers. You give teachers a bad name. I hope you are staisified with yourself.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Chocolate,

Your statements are completely inappropriate. Do you voice these thoughts to your colleagues, administrators, and the parents of your students? How on earth do you still have a job? I feel very sorry for the students you teach. I truly feel you must be a very cruel and unintelligible person or a person that like to get arise out of people. Use your free time to understand how to read an IEP (the vocabulary), to find a way to comprehend the importance of IEPS, to come up with lessons of how to differentiate activities for the various learning types of your students, and most importantly practice ways to model positve behaviors as well as a positive attitude for students. You must be horror show in the classroom! I feel very sorry for your students, they must regress terribly when they are in your class. What a waste of school year being placed with you. You are a disgrace to all teachers. You give teachers a bad name. I hope you are staisified with yourself.


so what's your real opinion of me???

[Unregistered]

Chocolate New Orleans, just so you know I found this topic from Google so there are more people than you think reading this, anyways. Antioch High School in Antioch, Illinois needs a new basketball coach. You should apply for the job because then you can teach at Antioch and apply your philosophy to the kids that go to school there.

(P.S. I hate Antioch High School)

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Chocolate New Orleans, just so you know I found this topic from Google so there are more people than you think reading this, anyways. Antioch High School in Antioch, Illinois needs a new basketball coach. You should apply for the job because then you can teach at Antioch and apply your philosophy to the kids that go to school there.

(P.S. I hate Antioch High School)


well, I guess it's a good thing noone knows my real name, now isn't it.

[Unregistered]

you're assanine

[Unregistered]

No IEP's for me since I was raised not to need a crutch in life. Go back to your room of 5 students and continue to flunk
Who said I was flunking, I am in college and I am passing all my classes. I only have accomendations for the test and I barely use them. Shouldn't everybody have a chance to succeed in school. You give a bad name to teachers all over this country. I really feel sorry for the kids that you are teaching because they are probably not learning anything in your class.

[Unregistered]

Woa, Choc! You are on a roll today, no doubt grinning from ear to ear in your disillusional notion that these are all your fans, all written by the same person! They're coming to take me away, ha ha, ha ha, ha ha.......

[Unregistered]

He'll nodoubt replie with his usual bwahahaha, want a tissue? Get some new material choc
Coach M from MN

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

Who said I was flunking, I am in college and I am passing all my classes. I only have accomendations for the test and I barely use them. Shouldn't everybody have a chance to succeed in school. You give a bad name to teachers all over this country. I really feel sorry for the kids that you are teaching because they are probably not learning anything in your class.


using any accomodation at all shows your failure in life

[BLBO]

using any accomodation at all shows your failure in life

What do you consider an accommodation. Would a word board for a child with CP be an accommodation the child could go without? How about a wheelchair?
How about a laptop for taking notes for someone who cannot write for extended periods of time due to a peripheral neuropathy? If my children weren't homeschooled, then one daughter would need to be at the front of the class to see the board. She is nearsighted and farsighted and her eye doctor cannot get her vision any better than 20/30 with glasses. When she first started wearing glasses it was even worse. Would her need to be nearer the front of the class be an unnecessary accommodation?

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

What do you consider an accommodation. Would a word board for a child with CP be an accommodation the child could go without? How about a wheelchair?
How about a laptop for taking notes for someone who cannot write for extended periods of time due to a peripheral neuropathy? If my children weren't homeschooled, then one daughter would need to be at the front of the class to see the board. She is nearsighted and farsighted and her eye doctor cannot get her vision any better than 20/30 with glasses. When she first started wearing glasses it was even worse. Would her need to be nearer the front of the class be an unnecessary accommodation?


if you take the post right above yours without the context, you would think I said "ANY accomodation at all (for anybody)" but I was refering to the fact that the poster above me says she barely uses her accomodations at all. I was implying that HER taking any accomodation at all proves she is a failure.

I have said it time and time again in this post, and other similar ones (although people don't want to read all of it because they are lazy), that accomodations for severly handicapped is one thing, accomodations for kids who won't sit their asses down in a chair for some fake labeled disease to make the parents not feel like a parental failure is another.

Blind is one thing, having a kid not bring their glasses is another. And too many times, I find kids and parents requesting "preferential seating" because they don't want to make their kids wear their glasses or replace lost ones.

[BLBO]

Actually, I have read the posts. You chose to say that using any accommodation at all showed failure in the poster's life. However, I do not recall any posts where the previous poster listed his/her accommodations (other than they had something to do with testing but were rarely used).
If using accommodations is wrong for one person who has been assessed as needing them, then you might as well say that it is wrong for everyone.

Just for the record, I do not disagree with all your posts. Many have validity.
I challenge you to continually examine your positions.

[Mr. H]

Inclusion and mainstreaming aren't terrible things. Classes can learn a lot from being around people with special needs.. I do agree, however, that the structuring of some of the programs can be a little off. We are supposed to be doing what is best for the child so they can have success in their lives. I feel sorry for the child whose parents decide that being in a classroom that is moving too fast or in which the other students suffer because the class has to move at a different pace to accommodate one child. If there was one regular ed child who wasn't getting it they would just get a lower grade or have to seek help outside of the class. The set-up isn't always balanced. I am happy to have students with special needs in class (though I don't have many) as long as they don't make learning more difficult for the rest of the class.

The whole goal of special education (which is horribly underfunded due to a war that funneled money out of education) is to help students with special needs successful and productive. If they are placed into a class where this isn't possible, I don't think the parents should get the last word. On the other hand, I don't think teachers should summarily dismiss students just because they have extra needs. As in all things, there needs to be a balance.

[starion]

It is more difficult to teach special needs children. One must be constantly on the alert for "doors" watch and wait for hints and then work four times harder to reach them, than with normal or accelerated children. It takes stamina, patience and a ton of love.
And it's easy to understand why a teacher who has 35 other children is maxxed out already. Some teachers are good with many students; others are great with one-on-one, like me. I love special needs children and can work
for hours with one or two of them and not once lose my patience. My mum, a wonderful and talented classroom teacher said she could not handle special needs children but she could easily guide 25-28 students to the next year without a major problem.
Special needs students can't thank you when they have learned something, be it ever so simple as holding a spoon to feed themselves. Perhaps the problem is that your school has no provisions for special need classes where the students can learn relevant things to their level of understanding. Putting them in a class where they are hopelessly surrounded by people smarter than them, is torture.

[Mr. H]

I have two students with IEPs, mild stuff... I devote very little extra time for them and am happy to do so when it is necessary. If a teacher is having a hard time with one particular student who is being included, then why not figure out a way to get an aide in the class for him/her?? I worked as a Paraprofessional aide for two years before going back to school to be a teacher. It was amazingly rewarding and I learned a lot about empathy and social structure among school-aged children. I think the rest of the class has a lot to learn from students with special needs. I think inclusion should happen at a much younger age than high school, though... it's just not fair to the student with special needs to throw them into the lions den in high school.

[BLBO]

I think inclusion should happen at a much younger age than high school, though... it's just not fair to the student with special needs to throw them into the lions den in high school.

Hmm... The area I am in includes special needs children in the regular classes from Kindergarten on. They have therapists and specialists help them in the room or pull them out to a resource room.

[Unregistered]

if you take the post right above yours without the context, you would think I said "ANY accomodation at all (for anybody)" but I was refering to the fact that the poster above me says she barely uses her accomodations at all. I was implying that HER taking any accomodation at all proves she is a failure.

I have said it time and time again in this post, and other similar ones (although people don't want to read all of it because they are lazy), that accomodations for severly handicapped is one thing, accomodations for kids who won't sit their asses down in a chair for some fake labeled disease to make the parents not feel like a parental failure is another.

Blind is one thing, having a kid not bring their glasses is another. And too many times, I find kids and parents requesting "preferential seating" because they don't want to make their kids wear their glasses or replace lost ones.


I am not a her. So Autism is a fake disease huh. tell that to a kid that has autism with a straight face. I have a form of autism. I am going to beat. People like you hold people with autism and other learning disabilities down

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

uh huh, sure you do.

[Unregistered]

How much is this web site paying Chocolate/NewOrleans to keep this baby going?

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

it WAS dead by about 15 days when you decided to bump it back to the top. :rolleyes:

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Mr. H;21019]
The whole goal of special education (which is horribly underfunded due to a war that funneled money out of education)

Newsflash Frenchy....education was never going to get any money that is being spent on the war....

[Mr. H]

[QUOTE=Mr. H;21019]
The whole goal of special education (which is horribly underfunded due to a war that funneled money out of education)

Newsflash Frenchy....education was never going to get any money that is being spent on the war....

One, don't call me "Frenchy", this isn't a 5th grade playground.

Two, I find it more than a coincidence that right around the time that the federal Government said that they were going to put more funding into special education a War erupted and .... nothing.

Education seems to be the Federal punching bag when it comes to funding. I only wish that we valued education at least as much as war. That being said, I fully support our troops, I merely question our policies regarding spending/funding.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Mr. H;22076][QUOTE=Unregistered;22071]

Frenchy:
Are you having a tough time following along? There never was going to be additional funding for special education.

Personally, I think additional money would be wasted on enhancing the U.S. education system. Exactly what would it go to? More money for teachers??? Newsflash they are already overpaid and the results are less then impressive.
Have you read the posts by NYC Teacher and CNO??? If that is teaching our children......good night!!! Maybe a better use of additional funds would be to provide remediation for english and spelling lessons to our teachers?

With respect to the war, I cannot think of a better use of our money. Except maybe a big parking lot in middle east???
Then perhaps we can address the cowardly French!

[Mr. H]

[QUOTE=Mr. H;22076][QUOTE=Unregistered;22071]

Frenchy:
Are you having a tough time following along? There never was going to be additional funding for special education.

Personally, I think additional money would be wasted on enhancing the U.S. education system. Exactly what would it go to? More money for teachers??? Newsflash they are already overpaid and the results are less then impressive.
Have you read the posts by NYC Teacher and CNO??? If that is teaching our children......good night!!! Maybe a better use of additional funds would be to provide remediation for english and spelling lessons to our teachers?

With respect to the war, I cannot think of a better use of our money. Except maybe a big parking lot in middle east???
Then perhaps we can address the cowardly French!


:rolleyes:

From what I remember, our superintendent was telling me that there would be an increase of funding... Funding that should be at 100% that is only around 15. He was explaining that there would be an increase up to 25%, which still leaves the regular ed budget to pick up the slack. Immediately thereafter, a war erupted thus no money ever came in.

Ok, not all teachers are alike. Maybe we do need to fund some teacher education (English should always be capitalized and I would consider the use of the preposition "for" as opposed to "to").

Cowardly French? Are you kidding me???!! Are you completely unaware of European history?? France was in the middle of both World Wars. I don't blame them at all for not wanting to be a part of another. They were also standing up for the whole idea that the UN should be involved and not just the US showing off it's bravado.

Parking lot?? That's a great solution. :rolleyes: Destroy an entire culture though genocide on our part because a small faction has formed terrorist groups. I'm not saying that this isn't a big problem, but the idea that we level a country full of innocent people because there is a faction of extremists there is a bit beyond my comprehension.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

the were in WWII, briefly, until the lost and the US bailed them out. :p

[JRSFD]

Geez, can't the parents do anything for these kids? If he can't cope with school, homeschool him.

I couldn't cope with elementary school (I had symptoms of autism) and kept getting bad grades. But then my parents homeschooled me, from the age of 8, and where am I now? Halfway through my AAS degree in avionics, with a year of "liberal arts" college education as well, and I just turned 16.

[Untamed Shrew]

As the Newb to this Forum, I can say that on some level, I have found this thread entertaining in the same way I find reality TV entertaining.:D

I have taught in public high school classrooms, and honestly, the Special Education students weren't the ones dragging the whole thing down. The year I taught in an inner-city school showed me that. I had ninth grade "average" students who literally could not read and had been socially promoted. Not one of THEM had an IEP. Frankly, I felt bad for my two students who did have IEPs in that they were truly average/high average students who needed a few accomodations (sit up front, paired oral/written directions, extra time on tests, able to write on tests, teacher signs off on homework book) and they were stuck in the class with some kids with horrendous behavior (one of them threw a desk at me for giving him a tardy).

Now I teach middle school, and I have quite a few students with accomodations, and frankly, I don't have a problem with it. All the accomodations I provide are elements of good teaching practice, and for the most part, I provide them to the class. In no way do I feel like I am bringing the class down. Parents of non-accomodated children have said, "They are doing the best reading of their lives this year."

So, just to add another perspective. And yes, I have refused on principle to implement accomodations that I felt were ridiculous, such as retesting if the child gets below a 70% and averaging the grade. Where I teach, a 70% is a C-, and there is nothing horrible about a low C.

So, now I've probably made both sides mad. :o

[Unregistered]

Passing everything must have been in her IEP.

"It reached its low point in late June, when Arts and Technology’s principal, Anne Geiger, overruled Mr. Lampros and passed a senior whom he had failed in a required math course.

That student, Indira Fernandez, had missed dozens of class sessions and failed to turn in numerous homework assignments, according to Mr. Lampros’s meticulous records, which he provided to The New York Times. She had not even shown up to take the final exam. She did, however, attend the senior prom."

Full article at: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Unregistered]

I was left with my jaw dropping open at this article. This is what our educational system is allowing, and it is appalling. I say, bring on the Mr. Lampros and the Chocolate New Orleans of education. As this article indicates, teachers like the aforementioned may be beating their heads against the wall but at least they are honoring standards, whether it be their own or the standards of an educational system that used to prepare our youth for the world, at least they are standing up for their principles and what should be the principles of us all. I am sure that it hasn't crossed Indira Fernandez or her mother's mind, there are very few employers who will put up with the absences and the excuses for same. Then what is she going to do? Ah yes, the hardworking and educated people of this nation will be supporting her. Makes me want to go out and work even harder...........in all seriousness, this sickens me. Some of us may have shuddered at Chocolate's harshness about IEP's and the lack of accepting responsibility by our students, but sorry folks.....he is right on target here. This article speaks volumes, and we need to listen.

[Untamed Shrew]

I don't see how the NYT article relates to special education--the article doesn't state that the student had an IEP.

Granted, what happened in that case is frustrating in the extreme, but it seems to muddle the issue about someone who has an IEP, and someone who just doesn't come to school.

[Unregistered]

It used to be that students adjusted to teachers and learned to survive in a world of hard knocks. Now teachers have to adjust to students who graduate thinking the world revolves around their needs. Some are totally unfit to step into a work force that demands integrity and worst of all being on time every day. Oh and don't forget stay up while you work. True I blame the parents for most of this because our educational system, that is slowly falling off the scale with the rest of the world, is only a political reflection of the messed up homes in America today. Kids can't focus today because mom and dad were fighting last night, or they were allowed to stay up till 1:00 AM watching some cruddy movie, or their diet is bad their brains can not function properly. And the teachers are suppose to fix all of the injustices inflicted by parents that will not say no.

Enter special Ed. True their are some cases were students are born with learning defects but more and more I think we need another classification LDD (Lack of Direct Discipline). Johnny gets what he wants when he wants. If it shuts him up and quiets him down so dad can go on with my life then Johnny gets it. This seems to be the parenting model I see as a teacher more and more. And then poor unsuspecting foolish teacher that I am excuse me for expecting johnny to follow my instructions, after all Johnny has only been allowed to follow Johnny's instructions. I am now suppose to undo 15 years of programming in 10 months, Wow! Oh ya and I can't hold Johnny responsible for his actions because he has an IEP or some kind of modified something.

Step back and look at the forest. The product of the American educational system is headed for the bottom of the stack when compared to other developing countries. But we will continue down the path of graduating students that can not read or multiply. Students that think if they can not achieve something then the standard of success must change not them. Why is it so wrong to help someone see their true talents. I was raised on a farm and see no shame in men and women that are able to put in a hard days work on a farm. Why do we try to fit everyone in the same box? Why not have schools for future mechanics and farmers, and plumbers, and college bound students? This would not be to shame any one but to better help them. Why force someone who will never use Algebra outside of high school to take it? Why force someone that is not headed for college to take chemistry? These are classes that will probably be a waste of their time and the teacher. Why can't they be free to do what they really want and work with their hands.

[Unregistered]

All the moaning and groaning and shock aside, if the teachers have personal objections to teaching all the kids, then they should work in a private education system. They fact is that they work for the public education system, which INLCUDES ALL THE PUBLIC. Just as there are laws that protect our freedom of speech, right to bear arms (if we are not a felon) and to assure our President must be an American, there are laws to ensure all our children recieve a public educaction, not just the ones the "teachers" want to teach or feel deserve, merit, respond to or benefit from public education. TEACHERS WORK FOR THE PUBLIC and are public employees who, in my opinion, deserve another post in regard to being held accountable...

[Unregistered]

All the moaning and groaning and shock aside, if the teachers have personal objections to teaching all the kids, then they should work in a private education system. They fact is that they work for the public education system, which INLCUDES ALL THE PUBLIC. Just as there are laws that protect our freedom of speech, right to bear arms (if we are not a felon) and to assure our President must be an American, there are laws to ensure all our children recieve a public educaction, not just the ones the "teachers" want to teach or feel deserve, merit, respond to or benefit from public education. TEACHERS WORK FOR THE PUBLIC and are public employees who, in my opinion, deserve another post in regard to being held accountable...






Just because they have a right to an education does not mean they have the right to be in a reg. ed. class. In Texas there is a law that states that if a child is making it impossible through misbehavior for the rest of the class to learn then any administrator, teacher, parent, or student can sue to have the child removed from the classroom. Last year I met a parent who got an out-of-control behavioral student removed to a behavioral school. If more PTO members were willing to hire lawyers schools would improve drastically.

[Unregistered]

One big problem that I see with SPED is that we currently lump all self-contained disabled students into the same room. Children who are mentally retarded but are capable of talking, walking, and learning to read are put in the same room as children who cannot walk, talk, use the bathroom, ect. Often admin behaves as though the only two options are to mix these kids or to put the less severely retarded child into a regular ed. classroom. This is a lose/lose situation for the kid with an IQ in the 60's. In one environment they are not chalenged/learning anything and in the other environment they cannot possibly suceed/learn anything.

There is another alternative. Admin could spend less money on superflous programs and hire more SPED teachers/build more classrooms.

Or the more severely disabled students could be sent to charter schools that specialize in their specific disability.

[beautifulday]

Some of these posts make me laugh. Of course, much of this depends on the district you teach in, and the resources at your disposable. I can understand that it would be quite difficult to service children with learning disabilities in poorer districts.

However, I also believe that the mark of a good teacher is being able to teach to all ability levels and learning styles. Thus, those that complain that they have children that can't learn are frequently crappy teachers that can't teach. It is also worth noting that many children with learning disabilities have average to above average IQs, making them, in many ways, smarter than then the teachers complaining on this forum. Is it possible that some here have chosen the wrong profession and, perhaps, their intellects are more suited to flipping burgers?

[Unregistered]

Some of these posts make me laugh. Of course, much of this depends on the district you teach in, and the resources at your disposable. I can understand that it would be quite difficult to service children with learning disabilities in poorer districts.

However, I also believe that the mark of a good teacher is being able to teach to all ability levels and learning styles. Thus, those that complain that they have children that can't learn are frequently crappy teachers that can't teach. It is also worth noting that many children with learning disabilities have average to above average IQs, making them, in many ways, smarter than then the teachers complaining on this forum. Is it possible that some here have chosen the wrong profession and, perhaps, their intellects are more suited to flipping burgers?

Whew yeah! I bet we can all think of one individual on this forum of which the last statement applies!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

let me guess, Instructorus Rex????
:D

another teacher saying pretty pretty words, but will never be able to implement what she preaches in her own classroom.

Of course, she'll come back on here and say "i've been teaching xxx years and I do... " blah blah blah.

[beautifulday]

Sorry, don't know Instructorus Rex.

Just speaking the truth: many children with learning disabilities have high IQs, making them extremely valuable in a classroom (even if they are struggling). And I have seen, time and time again, teachers who are able to balance children with all ability levels, including, gasp, those with IEPs!

[BigDaddyTeacher]

However, I also believe that the mark of a good teacher is being able to teach to all ability levels and learning styles. Thus, those that complain that they have children that can't learn are frequently crappy teachers that can't teach. It is also worth noting that many children with learning disabilities have average to above average IQs, making them, in many ways, smarter than then the teachers complaining on this forum. Is it possible that some here have chosen the wrong profession and, perhaps, their intellects are more suited to flipping burgers?

Does this mean that if a teacher cannot teach across all ability levels and learning styles then he/she is a poor teacher? Sorry, I don't agree with that. That cause/effect relationship doesn't really jive with reality, whether in public or private education.

The various ability levels and learning styles require various amounts of the teacher's time. Based on what other teachers at my school have said, I do a pretty good job presenting material across those styles (visual, aural, oral, kinesthetic, etc.) However, when the ability level of a child makes learning for the rest of the class impossible, what then? I have X number of students to help during any given 48 minutes. Who's individual time do I sacrifice to give the low ability student more individual time?

I feel lucky that I only have 52 students in my 6th grade classes (2 groups.26, block schedule). However, based on the 'ability levels' that I notice, at least 8 of them should not be in a mainstream class. They need more individual instruction that I am able to provide. Does that make me a bad teacher? An ineffective teacher? Not in my opinion.

[Unregistered]

Choc, I'm a special ed student. been in the program for most of my life. I graduated high school. I go to the community college in my town. I happen to know some special ed students, who happen to have mental disabilities, and they are confined to a wheel chair, yet they are some the smartest kids I know. Know why, they beat the odds. People always look down on us special ed students. They say we'll never amount to anything. You and the rest of those people are wrong. Look at Bill Gates, He has a disability and was in special ed. So was Stephen Spielburg. Einstein had a form of Austism called aspbuirgers, the same disability that I have. There are so many special ed students that amounted to so much. Me, I am starting my own bussness and a freeware company, and I am only 20 years old. So don't say that Us special ed. students are worthless and will never amount to anything, because most special ed. student are smart than your dimwitted normal student



Einstein, Spielburg, and Gates came through the system before it was as much of a joke as it is today. Their success doesn't disprove chocolate's view, it supports it. It is true that an attempt must be made to educate all students. But it is also true that an atempt must be made to hold all students to certain standards of learning and behavior if they are expected to succeed after school is over. For some reason, everyone on the board will disagree with that statement unless it is stated in the politically correct way. Chemfemme basically said the same thing as chocolate, but was actually praised by some. You know what happens when you assume. You assume that chocoate is angry, hates kids, and is a poor teacher. You say this because he states something that virtually every person on this board knows to be true. That a large percentage of special needs students slows down a class is something that cannot be denied by an honest person. Yet you attack a person that says it. I wonder if chocolate would have been praised if he had said I love all students and want them to succeed, but I am extremely worried about the needs of my regular ed kids before posting the rest of the message.

[beautifulday]

Does this mean that if a teacher cannot teach across all ability levels and learning styles then he/she is a poor teacher? Sorry, I don't agree with that. That cause/effect relationship doesn't really jive with reality, whether in public or private education.

The various ability levels and learning styles require various amounts of the teacher's time. Based on what other teachers at my school have said, I do a pretty good job presenting material across those styles (visual, aural, oral, kinesthetic, etc.) However, when the ability level of a child makes learning for the rest of the class impossible, what then? I have X number of students to help during any given 48 minutes. Who's individual time do I sacrifice to give the low ability student more individual time?

I feel lucky that I only have 52 students in my 6th grade classes (2 groups.26, block schedule). However, based on the 'ability levels' that I notice, at least 8 of them should not be in a mainstream class. They need more individual instruction that I am able to provide. Does that make me a bad teacher? An ineffective teacher? Not in my opinion.

Like I said, I can imagine that teaching in a district that does not provide enough resources to support special needs kids can be difficult..so no, this does not apply to all teachers. I am responding to the more generalized statements on this thread.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

unregistered gets it. I make it a point NOT to be politically correct for the very reason he states. People just want sunshine and fluffy bunny types of fixes in education and that's all they want to hear.

[Unregistered]

Like I said, I can imagine that teaching in a district that does not provide enough resources to support special needs kids can be difficult..so no, this does not apply to all teachers. I am responding to the more generalized statements on this thread.





I would like to see this imaginary school where there are enough resources for sped students to be supported in the classroom. Dumpimg kids into the cheaper inclusion classroom without support is the norm. It is a rare school that is actually able to provide inclusion support that is comperable to what they would receive in the resource room.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

In Utopia, USA - every kid is treated equally, teachers have unlimited time and would work for free if they had to.

[Yourworstnightmare]

Dear Chocobrain:

I know that you cannot fight fear and ignorance but...you are a disgrace as a teacher and a human being.

If you can't handle ALL of your students, go back to school, take a workshop or go flip burgers.

[sell]

CHOCOLATE don't be deterred by the liberal socialist masses. You are right on the money. We have created the most phony system imaginable. Look at the state of our country- an economic crisis created when the banks were forced by liberals to hand out loans to the weakest of society. It will not end. When we unleash the masses of spe[ed into an economy that could care less about their self esteem and what propped up special treatment they received in school so that they could have fake inflated false achievement we will see how bad its going to really get. There are currently no laws to protect teachers whose names appear next to these students "modified" grades on high school transcripts. In fact even more effort is being put forth to cover up the fact that they were special education at all in order to make them feel better about themselves and make sure they won't be "discriminated against" when they apply to college or a job.

America the Weak is doomed !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

I fear you are right. USA is the greatest nation ever IMHO but like all the other great nations, it is going to fail. Rome didn't fall overnight, neither will the US. The end result will be the same no matter what I do. All I am doing is trying to delay the inevitable past my lifetime.

[arimle]

In the place where i come from,children and teacher doesn't have much of a choice. We have to make do of what is available. I come from a third world country where resources are very scarce. We do not have facilities for the children with special needs. They are usually in the mainstream. Whether they learn something i don't know. Now our government is doing something but i don't know if they really care.

[Unregistered]

I hear a lot of bitterness ...from both sides of the issue at hand. I think that maybe Chocolate wants to stir the pot with inflamatory statements, some of which have some validity (had they been stated tactfully)

I don't agree that being liberal or conservative has anything to do with it to be honest. There are conservatives that have children with disabilities, and I most certain that they would want the best for their child just as a liberal would. This isn't about "political correctness" it's about tactfulness, sensitivity, and understanding (which I sense a lack of here). I know there are families who push for inclusion for the wrong reasons, however it has been proven to have positive outcomes for disabled and typical children. Regardless of your political affiliation we all need to be taught that everyone has different abilities, and talents; we all need to learn tolerance.

I understand why it could be challenging for a teacher to (as chocolate put it) dumb down a class, when there aremore capable students involved. I also think that there should be different levels of inclusion. I have a 7 year old son with Autism (IQ 113) who is a self-contained room, but goes to the inclusion room for reading because he is able to. That is how it should be done. Unfortunatley there aren't always the resources to provide such services. In that case what do you suggest be done, I'm curious (truly)?
What are we to do with those children? Do they not deserve an education also? Wouldn't education only make it so they aren't just burger flippers and can be more productive members of society?

You all should check out this amazing young man with Autism who has an incredible talent.
http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/
We should all be looking for what these kids can do and not focusing on what they can't!

[Unregistered]

They don't have to be in a regular education classroom to get an education. Whenever a teacher states that certain children are not able to cope in a reg. ed classroom, the arguement "everyone deserves an education is used". That statement suggests that the kids can't get an education in a resource classroom. I'd like to know exactly why so many SPECIAL EDUCATION teachers believe that they are incapable of teaching children.

Okay, maybe its because the average sped teacher is a bleeding heart paper monkey who would rather make macramae pots then teach a math lesson. That doesn't mean that kids shouldn't be assigned to the resource room, it means we should get better sped teachers.

[Unregistered]

I don't agree that being liberal or conservative has anything to do with it to be honest. There are conservatives that have children with disabilities, and I most certain that they would want the best for their child just as a liberal would. This isn't about "political correctness" it's about tactfulness, sensitivity, and understanding (which I sense a lack of here). I know there are families who push for inclusion for the wrong reasons, however it has been proven to have positive outcomes for disabled and typical children. Regardless of your political affiliation we all need to be taught that everyone has different abilities, and talents; we all need to learn tolerance.






Sorry, but your wrong. The belief that the government is going to sweep in and take care of all of your problems for you is common to both bleeding heart speds and bleeding heart liberals.

The belief that you are responsible for raising your own children properly is a conservative concept.

By the way, when you are pretending to be bipartisan you should stay away from using the liberal slogan "taught to learn tolerance". Liberals think tolerance means accepting others peoples bad behavior, conservatives view tolerance as the ability to agree to disagree.

[Unregistered]

I wasn't "pretending" to be bi-partisan first of all. I was simply stating that I can see both sides of the picture. I do agree that special ed is at times overused; however I do not agree with making hurtful, tactless statements to get that point across.

So I'm curious as to what a "conservative" would do if they had a child with a disability, such as high function Autism? Would they expect their child to be isolated away from typical children. One of the most effictive treatments for this neurological disorder is socialization. Should that child (at times with a higher IQ than neuro-typical children) not be given the same opportunities?

I disagree completly with you statement that tolerance is accepting bad behavior for liberals. Since when is having a disability, learning or otherwise, bad behavior?
The context of my use of tolerance simply referred to the fact that children/youth need to understand that all people have differing abilities, and that is okay. Agreeing to disagree is fine, when you aren't spouting off your opinions in a crass, uneducated way ( which could be seen by some as bad behavior) like chocolate.

I am only to assume that you do not have someone close to you who is/has experienced this. Getting Special Ed. services isn't easy (at least not in Rhode Island), and sure as hell isn't a quick fix for families struggling with a difficult diagnosis. Without that insigh how can you possibly make a judgement, as to what a parent should do?

[Unregistered]

Actually, I do have an uncle who is a high functioning autistic. I have seen personally how much damage it caused him to be pushed into a reg. ed. room without any kind of support.

My problem with sped is not the children but the way the system is set up. Any time the system is not working teachers are told that they are not being "sensitive" enough. Essentially the system exists to protect itself, not to help children.

Consider the situation that I was in a few years ago: Out of 23 students I had-9 kids with IQs in the 80s, 1 mentally retarded child, 2 emotionally disabled, 1 autistic student (who had problems with violence), 4 dyslexics, and 6 non-disabled students. All this with a sped teacher who rarely ever bothered to come to her inclusion times.

As you can probably assume, the ED students spent an enormous amount of time thinking up different ways to torture the rest of the sped students.

If there was an aid attached to every sped student, and if there were a limit on how many sped students could be placed into one reg. ed classroom, then I would be all for inclusion.

The biggest problem with sped is that it is built on dishonesty. As a parent you have no way of knowing how many sped students are in one classroom. You think your child is being "included" in a reg. ed classroom, and that may be the case, or it could be that he is "included" in a classroom with a bunch of kids who are more severely disabled than he is. Even if you are involved, and visit the school there is no way for you to really know because disorders like ED are not as obvious as autism. You also have no way of knowing if your child's aid is only there for your child or if the aid is there for 12 children (at which point the aid would lose effectiveness). You also have no way of knowing if the aid even attends inclusion (legally they never have to attend inclusion-however it is illegal to skip a resource session).

I've worked in schools with effective sped department and ineffective sped departments. The key difference between them is honesty. When dishonesty permeates a sped department there is no room for growth. Chocolate is simply trying to crash through the wall of lies with sometimes crass comments. It is pansies like you who cannot look beyond the manner in which something was said to see the author's intent who allow lies to thrive.

[Unregistered]

Although Pansies are beautiful flowers, there is no need for name calling! What about agreeing to disagree?
I never said that the system was perfect, on the contrary I believe it to be supremely flawed!

While I'm sorry to hear that your uncle had a challenging experience, not all caes are the same. I do not know your family, however it has been my experience (Mother, K teacher, and family support worker) that it isn't the teacher but the parents who push for inclusion (which was also stated by choc).

Of course your situation was unfortunate, but something that you should adress with your superiors. Maybe teaching in an inclusion class just isn't for you. Those situations are often the product of bugetary/funding issues, and can't be fixed on this site. So because the system is flawed the children should pay the balance?
No, we as adults **************** it up and make the best of a bad situation.


Just so were clear, Autism especially high functioning is not always obvious! It took us 3 years and a litany of tests to get a diagnosis and SpEd. services. My son is having a lot of success with inclusion, he spend most of his day in a self contained room, however is gradually being included in the mainstreem for reading which he is good at. We happen to be lucky enough to live in a district that has the resources to provide the support my son needs. Are there children who don't belong in inclusion? Of course. I am fully aware that I don't know everythin that goes on when I'm not in the class room. Luckily my son's school (and our town) is small enough for me to know a good portion of the students/parents, so yes I do have a good idea about their "issues". I choose to believe that the teachers and aids wouldn't choose to lie to me.

What's wrong with being sensitive to another human being? Why is being a compassionate person a fault, a weakness in our society? As I have stated, I do see both sides of the coin, regardless of how it was said! Do I appreciate how it was said? No. Do I think that the message would be received more warmly stated differently? Absolutly!

[Unregistered]

While I'm sorry to hear that your uncle had a challenging experience, not all caes are the same. I do not know your family, however it has been my experience (Mother, K teacher, and family support worker) that it isn't the teacher but the parents who push for inclusion (which was also stated by choc)."





In my experience it is not the parents, but the sped teachers and the admin who push for inclusion. Inclusion is cheaper than resource, so it allows the admin to push more kids into sped, thus allowing more of the "border-line" kids to take an easier test.






"Of course your situation was unfortunate, but something that you should adress with your superiors. Maybe teaching in an inclusion class just isn't for you. Those situations are often the product of bugetary/funding issues, and can't be fixed on this site. So because the system is flawed the children should pay the balance?
No, we as adults **************** it up and make the best of a bad situation. "







If I thought that s.u.c.k.i.n.g. it up and dealing with would help the kids then I would. Unfortunatly, soldiering on allows this unhealthy situation to ocurr over and over again. You reming me of northerners during the early 1800s who had tolerence for slavery because "not all slave owners mistreated the slaves". If we do not acknowlege and show disaproval for the corruption that currently exists within the sped system then we will never be able to pass sped reform laws. Rallying a group of people by pointing out why they should be outraged by sped is the first step in evoking change.







"Just so were clear, Autism especially high functioning is not always obvious! It took us 3 years and a litany of tests to get a diagnosis and SpEd. services. "





That says more about you then it does about autism. I usually work with the kids on the lower end of the academic/social spectrum because I have an intuitive knack for the learning disabled. Over time I have found that autistic kids have an "accent". Go into a classroom, close your eyes, and listen. You can hear the difference in an autistic child's speech patterns and a non-autistic child's speech. The autistic child's voice has a slightly higher pitch and a jerky rhythm.






" Of course. I am fully aware that I don't know everythin that goes on when I'm not in the class room. Luckily my son's school (and our town) is small enough for me to know a good portion of the students/parents, so yes I do have a good idea about their "issues". I choose to believe that the teachers and aids wouldn't choose to lie to me."







First off, most parents who are being lied to also think everyone is being honest. Secondly, you have re-used the "people aren't always treated badly, so a system that allows people to be treated badly should be tolerated" arguement. Thirdly, you are obviously well educated, and that puts you in the minority of sped parents. My experience has been that most sped parents come from a poor background and are bullyied into negative situations because they lack the confidence to ask questions during ARDs.







"What's wrong with being sensitive to another human being? Why is being a compassionate person a fault, a weakness in our society? As I have stated, I do see both sides of the coin, regardless of how it was said! Do I appreciate how it was said? No. Do I think that the message would be received more warmly stated differently? Absolutly!







I have no problem being compassionate to an actual child. This is a message board for adults so I think we don't have to be overly touchy about hurting each others feelings. Too much sensitivity keeps people from stating obvious truths and allows bad situations to continue. I would rather see education improve and hurt a few feelings than allow education to stagnate while we all feel great about our lack of achievment.

By the way-would you have bothered to respond to my last post if I hadn't called you a pansy? More to the point-would we be discussing the flaws in sped in this open, honest manner if CNO had not broken a few emotional eggs?

[jeseke]

Yes, I would have responded without the name calling (it didn't hurt my feeling I just wanted to make a point). I am quite passionate about the subject.
I agree with most of what you are saying.
I also agree with some of what CNO says just not the way he says it. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. The reality is that making inflamatory statements like he does isn't helping the case of folks like you, who seem to truly have some vested interest in improving things.
I also think that CNO is burnt out and needs a break. Some of his other posts are just as inflamitory, and while his message is understandable it gets lost in the mix. It is completly possible to state you case without being spiteful and rude. I really think that CNO just likes to stir the pot and sit back and enjoy the fruits of his labor.

I agree, the open conversation may not have been possible without the original post but do the ends justify the means. At the risk of sounding insensitive to you: Would you want CNO teaching your Uncle (as a child), I sure as hell wouldn't want him teaching my son!

[Unregistered]

Yes, I would have responded without the name calling (it didn't hurt my feeling I just wanted to make a point). I am quite passionate about the subject.
I agree with most of what you are saying.
I also agree with some of what CNO says just not the way he says it. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. The reality is that making inflamatory statements like he does isn't helping the case of folks like you, who seem to truly have some vested interest in improving things.
I also think that CNO is burnt out and needs a break. Some of his other posts are just as inflamitory, and while his message is understandable it gets lost in the mix. It is completly possible to state you case without being spiteful and rude. I really think that CNO just likes to stir the pot and sit back and enjoy the fruits of his labor.

I agree, the open conversation may not have been possible without the original post but do the ends justify the means. At the risk of sounding insensitive to you: Would you want CNO teaching your Uncle (as a child), I sure as hell wouldn't want him teaching my son!









I can't answer your question without meeting CNO is person. My gut feeling is that he would do a decent job because it sounds like he runs a predictable, well disciplined classroom,-which is the most important feature when considering which classroom an autistic student should be placed in.

While I agree that sometimes CNO goes overboard with the negativity, I suspect he does not act this way in real life. I say this, because I also word my opinions more bluntly on this message board than I do when talking to my student's parents. In general, it is not fair to tell your own students parents exactly what you really think because:

1. Parents often feel like they have to keep the teacher happy because they are worried about how their child will be treated.(by contrast, on this mb both groups can speak freely without fear of reprecussion).

2. Parents of disabled kids only get to experience their kids challenges once so they have a natural amount of uncertainty and trepedation which can lead them to blindly accept what ever their child's teacher tells rather than looking for other avenues(by contrast, on this mb we assume that the majority of posters are ready for a debate).




The thing is, CNO's communication style may turn people off, but he also gets people's attention long enough to change their mind. Regular, polite conversation doesn't do that.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

quite honestly, this is the only forum board that allows me to talk like I do concerning education. Teaching is political and I have said it before on here, I play the game and I do it masterfully in real life. This is the e-world. I don't have to be politically correct here.

Truth is, until we hold kids and their parents accountable for behaviors, I WANT SPED classes. Let the new teachers babysit and let me teach the kids who do want to learn.

If you put SPED kids in my room and assign a SPED teacher to my class with me.... DAMNIT, they better show up. Quit finding excuses to skip class. Why is it that every IEP meeting has to be scheduled during class? Why do you always need to skip my class to catch up your paperwork? I'd love to just be able to leave and catch up my grades and dump my class off on someone else.

I can handle a LOT of different SPED issues like learning difficulties. I have no problems letting kids have extra time to finish a test, etc. I have ways to allow kids to work while the others get started on busy work that is related to the next chapter (disguised busy work so they don't skip doing it) But one thing I WON'T tolerate is behavior SPED issues in a main class. Behavior issues period. The biggest turd I have in any class this year is an advanced, very smart kid. The second biggest turd I have is a SPED kid. I treat them the same. I don't care which one "barks" in class, or whether or not the one kid's IEP covers that or not, I send them out to the office. Go bark up there

but continue thinking I'm burned out. I lol

[jeseke]

Well to be clear I wouldn't want CNO teaching my child weather or not he is different in real life. Yes, structure and discipline are important for a child with Autism. They are far from the only thing necessary for successful education. Compassion and understanding are also critical. Many children with Autism and other disorders simply can't help their behaviors.

My son for example paces when restless,frustrated, overwhelmed. Once he paces for some time he is ready to work. He is pretty good about following the rules when they are clear, however needs some leniency around self stimm behaviors. I supose he would be one of those disruptions that wouldn't be tolerated.

Frustration with the system, or even the parents shouldn't spill over onto the kids. I know that there are parents who want rediculous accoms on the IEP. Can the kids be faulted for that?

I know this mb is sometimes used for venting, however I have seen many posts from teachers/parents who are really looking for legit advice/ideas, not a debate.

People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. -Maya Angelou

[Unregistered]

Well to be clear I wouldn't want CNO teaching my child weather or not he is different in real life. Yes, structure and discipline are important for a child with Autism. They are far from the only thing necessary for successful education. Compassion and understanding are also critical. Many children with Autism and other disorders simply can't help their behaviors.

My son for example paces when restless,frustrated, overwhelmed. Once he paces for some time he is ready to work. He is pretty good about following the rules when they are clear, however needs some leniency around self stimm behaviors. I supose he would be one of those disruptions that wouldn't be tolerated.









This has more to do with how sped students are supported than with CNO. If all students with severe/high need disabilites have their own aid then they can leave the classroom for a short break to take a walk in the hall. This would allow your son to have the flexibility he needs, would keep the other students from being distracted, and would allow teachers to maintain an orderly classroom.

Of course, when there is only one sped student who needs this type of leniency it does not distract the rest of the class. But what happens when there are eight or more sped students who all need to get up and walk around? The answer, quite frankly is that no learning happens. Everyone is too overstimulated by their neighbor's movement to focus on their assignments.

Now compound this issue with "mimicry". During the school year when I had 17 sped students +6 reg ed students, 13 of the kiddos had been diagnosed with ADHD. Interestingly, the other 10 students began to mimic the symptoms of ADHD-it became the "normal" way to behave. This in itself wasn't that big of a problem (short, fast paced lessons take care of this)-but what was difficult was when several of the reg. ed students began mimicking autistic behavior-because unlike an autistic child they did not have melt-downs when they were overwhelmed-they attempted to mimick the melt down behavior ALL THE TIME. The only real way to keep the kids from mimmicking is to not tolerate the unwanted behaviors, inside the classroom, from anyone. So, if autistic children have aids, it is perfectly alright for them to take a break from the classroom for some "wiggle time" when necessary.


One of the reasons why I think CNO would create a positive classroom environment is his intolerance for bullying. Autistic kids are targeted for bullying more often than reg. ed kids because the bullies have an easier time getting them to react. Bullying becomes more or less extreme depending on the school culture. For example, I used to teach at a school where around 85% of the students came from multi-generation welfare families. By 4rth grade many of the boys had grouped themselves into mini-gangs (and actually used mass assualt to attack selected victims), both boys and girls were caught engaging in promiscous behavior, and as teachers, we even caught our 9 year old students doing drugs(pot). Now if this sounds like an inner-city school then you will be surprised to learn that this school was located in a town. This type of behavior, once only associated with urban environments, is becoming more normalized. I predict that in the next 20 years we are going to many more schools like the hell-hole where I used to work.

My point is that in this type of environment autistic children are bullied on a continual basis. Based on CNOs posts I think he would raise a big enough stink to get the autistic child placed in full-time resource. As important as socialization is, no socialization is better than bad socialization (bullying).

[Unregistered]

First of all I would like to thanks to all for such a great discussion. What I think is we should first understand the behavior of autistic child. Autistic children are pushed around on a time basis. I don't find any thing wrong if I am playing games with children, or I allow them to take extra time to finish their test. But what I should see is the output that they are giving me in response.

[tisamit]

First of all I would like to thanks to all for such a great discussion. What I think is we should first understand the behavior of autistic child. Autistic children are pushed around on a time basis. I don't find any thing wrong if I am playing games with children, or I allow them to take extra time to finish their test. But what I should see is the output that they are giving me in response.

[ionisselo]

31442972
#6634
By sun on Thursday, July 08, 1999 - 02:09 pm

Students who have 52 in there AISSC Exams from CBSE and is very keen in getting himself admitted in technical education why there is no provision any where in our country to get admission without donation. If there any college let me know.

[Spectrum]

[QUOTE=Chocolate_New_Orleans;16213]because all we are doing, is not pushing our brightest to achieve their potential, instead, we are slowing down the class for the special needs kids whose parents insist that their baby should be in a 'normal' class.

So meanwhile, Johnny, who can't multiply past his 3's is in my kid's middle school math class doing nothing more than preventing the teacher, who is already stretched too thin to teach all 35 in his class, to answer questions like (why is it x= the number, why can't it be n= the number, or z, or q)

get the undesireables out of my kid's class.

Also, get the undesireables out of the class I teach. We have spent an entire semester on plotting hurricanes, if you can't do it by now, you need to be in the class with 2 teachers, a para, and 2 other students. YOu are either too slow to be in my class, or too lazy. Either way, get rid of the ones that are slowing the rest of the herd down.

A herd of gazelles in Africa are only as fast as it's slowest member, once he is killed by the lion, the herd speeds up[/QU

Old bitter burnt out teachers like you are bad for education. Boy am I glad I don't work with you!

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

you do, they are just silent and I'm not scared to tell the truth. ;)

[Unregistered]

I am a high school teacher and there are 13 students who are special ed in just ONE my classes and it takes up a HUGE amount of time away from my "reg" students. I agree that curriculum is slowed down and the parents and teachers, not the SPED students, who do the majority of work in terms of making sure their kids are on top of their responsibilities. There is a disconnect between SPED students being able to advocate and identify their needs for themselves. Over the years I have realized that special ed doesn't mean neccessarily a neurological learning disability but somewhere the child just didn't catch on or obtain the skills needed to keep up. Most of my non-teaching time is spent tracking down students, their late or missing assignments, and meetings with case workers about how they are not meeting their end of their IEP. I can't help but thinking what is going to happen in three years when they can't remember what time to come to work or how to complete a certain task- regardless of what they end up doing, because mommy or daddy can't be there 24/7 or the boss doesn't give a **************** what their learning disability is? The real world doesn't cater to learning disabililies (which is different from disabled btw).

There are a lot of people being disrespectful to teachers- and I bet not one of you have taught one day. Everyone has a right to an education but a one size fits all approach is not the way. If you can't keep up there are alternatives.

teacher lady.

[Porkchop]

I am a middle school ELA teacher and have several special ed kids in each of my classes. It seems to me that more sp ed teachers are focused on getting their kids 'credit' for grades and making mommie happy than ANYTHING else.
I am the sp ed teachers #1 enemy, why because I speak up for the reg ed kids and question the hypocritical behaviors of the sp ed dept.. I think they should try to help the students become smarter not manipulate the system, and that is what the kids are taught -how to manipulate and sneak around for grades not how to read or write. Why because the sp ed teachers do not have faith in the kids , so they teach them to cheat. Anytime you question them they attack you, there is no fairness for reg students only sp ed kids get breaks and it is bull****************.
Why should I spend 20-50% of my time on <10% of the kids. I have a student who comes in and rages for 10 min everyday, the others have to endure it and no one else sees a problem, write ups are ignored it is a mess. I have a couple others who wander around at school do nothing but pick on others in the most adult ways sometimes and never get in trouble because they have a bad home life.
What about the other 30 kids in the class, they have no rights? to relax and learn? to feel safe from abuse from weirdo kids who have weirdo parents.
We had 6th grader, in another class, rub his balls and then rub a girls face! for Gods sake!
Daily disruptions , arguing and horrific behavior is the result of mainstreaming in my school.
Well in michigan sp ed students get special treatment and it is not fair.