Does a sub have a hope of disciplining high school students?

[Chris]

Should have asked sooner, but I am subbing in h.s. Language Arts tomorrow, and I've taught that teacher's classes once before. The 9th grade honors classes are well behaved, but some of the senior boys in the other classes get pretty rowdy. Nothing physical, just suggestive talk and stuff like that. My 12th grade daughter says they act the same way in every class, not just when there's a sub, but I feel like I shouldn't let them get away with that. I also worry that if I put my foot down, they will get worse, to see how far they can push me. Should I ignore them or send them to the principal or what? Last time I just made extensive notes for the teacher, figuring she could chastise them when she got back. Please give your advice. Thanks.

[Garett6te]

It really depends on administration. If they are weak sending them to the office, will only make matters worse.

I would suggest trying to work it out with the kids. "Hey listen, I'm only here for the day. How about we try to get along and do what your teacher asked.?"

Reasoning with kids and letting them know that understand how they feel, goes a long way.

[Chris]

Yeah, I usually try a casual approach first, like the one you suggested. Thank goodness, the worst troublemakers were all absent Friday - how could I get so lucky? One was being sworn-in to the Air Force, so his twin brother was also gone, to attend the ceremony. I hope the Air Force will straighten him up a bit, but of course, he still has to finish high school first, so his teachers will have to put up with him for several more months, poor things.

Also, the teacher left them some substantial work this time instead of just journal writing. No one cared to write in their journals last time.

[Caryn]

Hello, I am a high school business teacher but I have also had experience with substitution. Only recently, this past year, I have been a sub for three different high schools. The regular classroom teacher should have lesson plans made in advance (good teacher does), have an emergency folder (backup) for emergency leaves, and have a list of students with "write-ups" already for the sub for the students that misbehave on regular basis...Upon entering classroom, let students know that you have in hand, "Forms" already made out to turn in at the end of day to Principal! (But state you would rather throw them in trash)! Principals don't like to have subs bringing down students, nor their regular teachers, if a teacher can't handle her students, she/he shouldn't be there. This has always worked for my subs and students.
BE Tough!.....as students get to know you,,, they learn who they can push around when teacher is gone!....Caryn

[Unregistered]

First of all, let me say you are not alone. Students often view subs as a chance to 'try to get away with things', but try to remember they are just teens trying to test the waters and seeing what they can get away with. More importantly you have one day with them, so I agree that it is probably best to let the teacher handle the discipline the next day. However, the way that I begin a class when I sub is by introducing myself, telling them MY set of class rules: Which are very simple: Respect yourself and respect others, make an honest effort and ask questions. I then take 2 minutes to discuss with their input what respect means...what it looks like. This of course, does not always work, but it sets a tone and I know they are clear upfront with what I expect from them. I also have to overlook some smaller comments...I am afterall, only a sub for a day. I pick and choose my battles and pick and choose what i decide to report to the regular teacher...especially because I would like to be called back and no one likes to come back after a day off and have a zillion and one comments about their students to deal with.

[Unregistered]

you have already received great advice. I would add that if it is a school you work in frequently, you might want to introduce yourself to the principal and ask how he/she would like you to handle discipline when you are working in his/her building. I see it as a proactive step. Many schools have a sub handbook and/or training-our little school does not, but our teachers check in with subs in neighboring classrooms during the day to see how things are going. Good luck and thanks for being willing to sub.

[Unregistered]

My first thoughts also were meeting with the principal or department chair ahead of time and asking how you should proceed and what to do if this happens again. Since you have subbed this teacher's classes before, you have a more legitimate reason for asking about their policies on discipline. What these students are doing promotes a sexually harassing environment. Other students may be very uncomfortable and could potentially complain to their parents or administration and have a right to do so. It would be your job and responsibility to do something about it when it happens. If you are asking administration ahead of time, they can and should advise.

[Chris]

Thanks for the advice so far.

The regular classroom teacher should have lesson plans made in advance (good teacher does), have an emergency folder (backup) for emergency leaves, and have a list of students with "write-ups" already for the sub for the students that misbehave on regular basis...Caryn

Yes, the teacher knew ahead of time that she would be out and she left plans, but it was not enough to keep the kids busy. Four of the classes were to work on laptop computers, but she didn't arrange to have the cabinet unlocked, so the students were unable to use them. I wrote passes for several to go to the library and use the computers there.

When I sub in the elementary, I keep some word games and things on hand, and small prizes like mini shape erasers or stickers, but that won't work with high schoolers. Does anyone have any ideas for simple things to keep the bigger kids occupied?

[Unregistered]

Hi. I too am a sub for both Middle & High School, and have experienced some of the more lively and challenging high schoolers. As a soltuion to those issues, I use the following techniques which works most of the time:

First I ask them nicely to adhere to my request: "John please refrain from making comments like you just did".....

Second: I state my expectations: "John, you are expected to follow my directive to you when I give it"

Third: I state the consequence: " John, you don't have to follow my directive, but you do understand that if you don't you behavior will be disruptive and disrespectful to me, and detention or other disciplinary action will be taken"

Last: " John, you have a decision to make, you can follow my directive now, and we can continue eithout any further class interruption, or you will have detention, what do you plan to do ?"

While ti's not full proof, it does usually work, or the student faces the consequences stated.

[Unregistered: JFurr]

As a classroom teacher of many years, who has been recently just sub-ing. I first must say my hats-off to all subs. It is a much harder job than I ever expected. It also gives you a different perspective on a school. I see how the school as a whole functions, how one area is related to another. And how the discipline over the entire school is handled. If schools were really progressive they would put their new administrators through a "sub" trial before putting them to work. This would be a great lesson in education. They would get a "feel" for the trials new teachers are going through, and the experienced ones as well. Each class is different and the dynamics of the entire class may hinge on one student being present or absent. They really do "gang" up on you. If this happens, and reason does not work, you must begin removing the ring-leaders. Letting them them have their "say", only fuels the fire. I find that many classroom teachers either ignore the notes/referrals I leave them, or throw the "busy" work away. I will not sub for them again if this happens and I find out about it. These children have to be held accountable, more so for a sub. The teacher should understand that it is a reflection of their class character and control. So I have started giving them (referrals) to the principal or administrator in charge, then follow up on it later. Once you have a reputation for follow through it will get around. (it only took 1 month in a school of 3000).
Once again, thanks to the "subs" of the world. Without them a classroom teacher would have a much different class to come back to (and life would be harder for the others who have to "cover" the classes w/ no subs).

[Unregistered]

The trunk of my car is my office...
I have crates in the trunk. They each represent a program where I work.
#1 crate for Public School "calls".
(k-1) (2-6th) (7-8th)

#2 crate. Aquaaerobics Program for pool/Seniorcize.

#3 crate. Hebrew School grade 3 and Sunday school (k-1.)

#4 crate. ALL MISC. STUFF LIKE: markers/antibacterial lotion/kleenex/colored chalk/MUSIC lots of CD's for all ages/chocolate reses peanut butter cups/clipboards........

#5 crate. LOTS OF MATERIALS ALREADY TO GO BECAUSE EVERY BUILDING I GO TO (if the copier is working) I make many many worksheets for all occasions!

I KNOW I GOT PLENTY OF MATERIALS FOR ALL THESE LITTLE WIPPERSNAPPERS! THEY ALL KNOW MRS. WIZOV IS NOT THERE TO BABYSIT! AS I CONTINUE MY PROGRAM AS A "guest teacher" I have developed a relationship with the students. Now I am having students in my classes and I knew them or brother or sister when they were in the elementary grades.

STAY FIRM BECAUSE THEY REMEMBER EVERY MOVE YOU MAKE!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS,
FRAN WIZOV
f.salins-wizov@comcast.net

[Unregistered]

First, let me say I admire anyone who is a substitute teacher. Teaching can be a tough job, and substituting can be especially challenging! As a teacher, I try to avoid being out as much as possible, simply because foreign language subs are very hard to find in my area. A couple of things successful substitutes have used with my (sometimes challenging) classes are (1) A strong hand - let the students know YOU are in charge! Be firm, but polite and respectful. (2) Have an activity for them to do as they walk into the room. This can be something on the board or overhead projector, and doesn't have to be content-related, just something that grabs their attention and settles them down. (3) Bribe them! I have my subs write the names of student who are being helpful & (positively) participatory. When I get back, they will get a treat - sometimes a munchie, or maybe extra credit points. (4) My favorite sub always comes prepared with stickers & candy (or I leave her some candy) to bribe the students - I don't ask her to do this, she just chooses to! The students love her, and even though she doesn't speak a word of Spanish, they love having her in. And these are 9-12 graders!

[Unregistered]

Try watching military/Spec Ops movies. You really are in terrorist-infested territory. Just remember you can't beat them up, can't swear at them and, unlike the SEALs, most of them don't want to be there. Otherwise

BOAT CREWS... STAND BY YOUR BOATS!!

MOVE YOUR A--ES!!

[Unregistered]

no a sub does not have the righ to disiplen their only stupid people filling in for the teacher who has the right to disiplin you but sub dont have the right

[Unregistered]

Some really great feedback here. Being a sub is challenging enough but try subbing in an art room---not only are you dealling with verbal issues but the kids damage materials, walk off with materials or in the case of clay, throw them. You've got to nip these behaviors in the bud. The sooner these kids know that you will not accept the behaviors and are willing to hand out detention, the behaviors will minimize. Keep them busy. Boredom breeds disciplinary problems. If it is an art room, have a clean-up day and grade them on their efforts. The regular teacher will appreciate the tidy room when they return.

[Unregistered]

I believe it's easier for an alpha male to be a sub. The kidlings know I can not use my hardened muscles to inflict damage upon their tender bodies but.... there usually IS a psychological impact when a deep-voiced hulk gives a neer-do-well "the look" and approaches akin to a silverback mountain gorilla approaching an interloper upon his territory.

But, now is the time for the "shock value"!!!!! After drawing near and the miscreant is expecting negativeness I use humor to garner the attention of the troublesome one AND to convey my desires to all in the classroom. After briefly informing the trouble maker of the behavior I desire I thank them sincerely.

The method usually works quite well. Firmness AND humor AND courtesy are often an effective combination.

But, as stated, being an alpha male does provide some inherent advantages. Females can develop "strength" and display it but it takes a wee bit of time and practice.

[Unregistered]

I subbed for about a year while getting my certification. I found it 10 times more valuable than my masters, to be honest. I think you can tell a lot about the teacher for whom you're subbing by the way the kids treat you. Sad, but true. If a student says they're always like this, chances are fighting it when you're subbing is an uphill battle. When I was on jobs that were only a day or two, mostly I wasn't too strict, unless the behavior was really bad. If you'll be there more than a few days, it's good to be a total hardass on day one. I was big on writing a referral for someone to show them I meant business. I really hate displays of dominance like that, but it showed them I wasn't just going to sit up there and threaten them with consequences that never materialized, as a lot of subs do. Someone made the valid point that some administrations are so weak that sending them to the office doesn't do much. That may be the case, but it sure gets the pain in the asses out of my hair for the day!

I know that sounds like a terrible attitude to some extent, and it would never fly in my own classroom, but subbing is a whole other animal. You don't have time to establish your own procedures and classroom environment, so sometimes you just have to make do!

[Unregistered]

For the most part, there are only a few disruptive students in a class, about as many as there are that will perform despite what goes on around them. Most are like a school of fish and just follow they way the class seems to be flowing.

I sub in a large public school system (MS & HS) and carry my own back up plans, a cheap digital camera and hand held recorder. If they begin to ignore my directives, I bring the devices out and tell them, "You know that I don't know each one of you yet, but your assistant principal/department chair/teacher do and they will get a copy of this tape and a few pictures to reflect your behavior. I expect more from you than you have been showing up to now". That has done it 90% of the time for me.

If that doen't work I announce a "Field Trip" and someone goes to the next level of discipline, outside the classroom. One "Field Trip" is enough to get most classes back on task and moving forward with the assigned work.

Good administrators understand that subs need their support or class day will be wasted. I expect them to perform just as I expect the student too.

[azeticano]

I guess that as a sub you have all the sayings in the class.you need to have the students choose between a better behavior or a consequence. communicationis the best way to deal with the problem without taking matters further.

[azeticano]

I guess that as a sub you have all the sayings in the class.you need to have the students choose between a better behavior or a consequence. communicationis the best way to deal with the problem without taking matters further.

[Unregistered]

Keep in mind that the substitute teacher does not have a chance of controlling the class if the regular teacher cannot. I have had subs tell me that the same group of kids are great when she subs for me, but horrible when she subs for other teachers. My kids also know that if they misbehave when a sub is there, the punishment is ten times worse than if it happens when I am there. Therefore, if you find out that your notes to the teacher aren't being followed up on, don't sub for that teacher again. Tell the person in charge of calling subs that you don't want to sub for that teacher again and specifically why. Also, communicate with the other subs that you have problems with that teacher's classes. The office will follow up on it when they have a hard time finding a sub for a specific teacher.

[Unregistered]

Even though I started this thread a while ago, I'm still keeping an eye on it and want to thank everyone who submitted advice. I've gotten some helpful things out of it.

Chris

[Unregistered]

I had a heck of a time one day with a particular bunch of kids, and the next day before we got started, I said, "I have detention slips, and I'm not afraid to use them!" They all laughed and were much better behaved that day.

[Unregistered]

Personally, I feel a video camera works wonders. If that is an option for you, by all means, film the little buggers. I have resorted to that on occasion. When the parent is confronted by proof that their little darling is a pain in the neck, they generally become very supportive. It will also show you and the interventions you have tried.

Secondly, a slow, calm voice is immensely valuable, especially when used with "I" messages. "I need you get out your pen, and begin working" repeaded slowly, several times, almost always works for me, especially if I have lowered my voice. The key is, you have to stop class to do this. You can't continue instruction and do this as an aside. The focus of every eye must be the miscreant. Usually, they are shamed into doing what you want, but the shame comes from their own actions rather than from you, so there is no feeling that they need to retaliate.

Thirdly, at the beginning of the day, make friends with the other teachers in the hall, and ask if you can send students who are giving you problems to them. It is humiliating for a senior to have to sit in a room full of freshmen, and a freshman sitting in a room of (BIG) seniors is a bit intimidated. They don't like being put in an unfamiliar environment. They know the audience in their classroom; they don't know how the audience will react in another classroom.