Should we encourage ALL HS students go to college? [Archive]

Redd

03-04-2006, 07:29 PM

I see too many people thinking that University is the be-all and end-all. Numbers in the trades are severely lacking right now, but we have an abundance of university grads with no direction, goals or purpose.

I am an engineer. When I was in high school, I would have never thought of taking an elective in wood shop, wiring, welding or auto mechanics. I was always told to take all the high level academic courses I could - ESPECIALLY since I was heading into an engineering degree. I got to tell you, looking back, these types of courses would have prepared me for my current job a thousand times more than the biology, English, and history I had crammed down my throat. I'm just saying that I could have been "more prepared" leaving high school had some faculty members or councillors really known what engineers did for a living.

To prepare someone for what's beyond High school, they must leave HS knowing "how to learn" - challenges await in any field where they won't immediately know the answer. They need to have developed a strong work ethic and be able to work alone or in a team. Whether taking up a trade or going to University, they need to know their options - what careers are in demand? How do certain careers relate to the subject matter they enjoyed?

Obviously you can't tell them to go or not go, but we can help them make an informed decision by providing them with all the information and possible alternatives. Let them digest it with their parents, and whatever will be, will be.

Unregistered

03-05-2006, 12:07 PM

I am an engineer. When I was in high school, I would have never thought of taking an elective in wood shop, wiring, welding or auto mechanics. I was always told to take all the high level academic courses I could - ESPECIALLY since I was heading into an engineering degree. I got to tell you, looking back, these types of courses would have prepared me for my current job a thousand times more than the biology, English, and history I had crammed down my throat.

But you were able to become an engineer. Today's college market is so tight that those who take wood shop instead of biology would never qualify to be in your shoes.

An educated person knows the fundamentals of science, English, math, and history, and so on. The university experience should be scholastic; unfortunately, many of my engineering buddies looked upon the university as a vo-tech.

I agree that the courses in welding and wood shop should be available, but not at the expense of the core subjects (especially math and English, which are vital). They should remain electives; however, students should be required to take one of these electives each quarter.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

Unregistered

03-05-2006, 12:10 PM

By the way, "I had crammed down my throat" is incorrect. The proper phrase should be "I was taught." If we have a bad attitude towards our own education, what attitude do we convey to our students?

Unregistered

03-08-2006, 03:49 PM

As a student i know how to prepare myself for college just 2 years from today. I took a course called A.V.I.D. (Advance Via Individual Determination). Not once in my high school career have i been reccomended to the military. This is what i want to go into and where i plan to get the money for college but not once has a teacher or counsoler ever said its a consideration. We are encouraged to go to college or a trade school, never anything else. Maybe it is just that ive heard all this stuff over and over again or maybe counsolers and teachers need to be more excepting to what we are going to do after high school and lead us in that directoin.

Back to the military. Ive taking 3 different carrer placement test given by diffrent high schools and NONE of them had a military possibility of scoring to. Im glad the supreme court just decided that if a school gets money from the government then they have to let recruiterers on campus. There are just to many people who think all the military is is killing or dying.

Unregistered

03-08-2006, 11:44 PM

It is a shame that teachers let their political ideals get in the way. There is nothing wrong with joining the military for those that desire it.

KatieBee

03-10-2006, 02:29 PM

Many argue that a college degree today is the equivalent of a high school degree of old. The job of a teacher is to prepare every student to the best of yoru ability - making sure they have a baseline knowledge and strong analytical and problem solving skills. Whether or not they want to apply those at a higher level is their choice ultimately.

Unregistered

03-11-2006, 11:34 AM

The job of school is to keep youngsters out of the work force as long as possible while providing supervision so the parents can remain productive. Furthermore, college is an industry with great profits to be earned. As high school teachers, you should bring each of your subjects to fruition for the good of the system.

Unregistered

03-11-2006, 05:28 PM

Sounds like someone got kicked out of college recently. :D

Unregistered

03-11-2006, 05:47 PM

Kicked out? Do they still do that? Surely one can find somewhere else to purchase a degree...

Unregistered

03-11-2006, 07:53 PM

Honestly, I think you answered your own question by use of the word "encourage." Just because I encourgae it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Now this does not mean that I don't recognize the need for laborers but I'd rather see one of my voc. kids running his own business, with business experience, rather than working for someone else.

As fas as the military, I don't encourage it, not because of my political beliefs but because of the state of the world today. Many of my family members have been in the military at some point, and you are right, it's not all about killing however, who's to say where you will be with any certainty. Many of my students who consider the military don't do so because of college money but because they see it as a way "out of dodge." The truth of the matter, if you have low grades you become a "grunt" and grunts work the front line....

sbuchanan

03-13-2006, 11:27 AM

* The point of becoming a teacher is because you believe that all children are able to learn and that all of them can go to college if they have good teachers that facilitate learning and encourage them to succeed.

Unregistered

03-27-2006, 06:11 PM

A teacher's job is to instill in students a confidence about themselves, a desire to improve themselves, and a willingness to know more tomorrow than they know today. For some that means going to college, for others that may mean other things. If we do those things for our students, then we in turn, must have the confidence in the product (student). The right decision (college or no college) will be made. And if that decision is not made correctly the first time, then hopefully, the student will have the confidence to "try again."

Real Live WI Teacher

03-27-2006, 11:37 PM

But you were able to become an engineer. Today's college market is so tight that those who take wood shop instead of biology would never qualify to be in your shoes.

An educated person knows the fundamentals of science, English, math, and history, and so on. The university experience should be scholastic; unfortunately, many of my engineering buddies looked upon the university as a vo-tech.

I agree that the courses in welding and wood shop should be available, but not at the expense of the core subjects (especially math and English, which are vital). They should remain electives; however, students should be required to take one of these electives each quarter.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

College attendance rates for high school graduates have increased dramatically since the early 1970s. The percentage of high school graduates completing at least some college rose from 44 percent in 1971 to 62 percent in 1995.
The national high school graduation rate for all public school students remained flat over the last decade, going from 72% in 1991 to 71% in 2002.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), a division of the U.S. Department of Education, as of 2003 the national high school “completion rate,” defined as the percentage of adults twenty-five and older who had completed high school, was 85% (Stoops 2004).

Nationally, the percentage of all students who left high school with the skills and qualifications necessary to attend college increased from 25% in 1991 to 34% in 2002.

There is very little difference between the number of students who graduate from high school college-ready and the number of students who enroll in college for the first time. This indicates that there is not a large pool of students who have the skills necessary to attend college but do not do so.

percent of 25 y.o.'s that completed college: 1970- 11%, 1994 22% (US census)

All the information from respected research I've encountered supports that it's much more "loose" and acceptable. In WI, you wouldn't believe the measures being taken not only to qualify for admissions but to prepare high school students to attend college, especially those of specific ethnicities. UWMad spends half a million a YEAR to recruit African American high schoolers from Milwaukee. Tutors, support programming, neighborhood centers, summer programs at the UW - to prepare and and solicit them to attend. That has not proven that successful, though.

Maybe it's different here in WI, but I see every opportunity to attend college. I feel that it's almost bigoted- there's only "one way" to be ok and successful. I have not witnessed college, especially right after high school, to be the "only" good choice for many people, yet they are made to feel like second class citizens, taking the left-overs, and it's not the case. It's not that preparing for college isn't valid, but that choosing other options are just as valid and that those students should also be valued just as much - with messages, curriculum, and money.

There I go stirring up controversy again =) And "book smarts" aren't the only, or even the best, kind of smarts there are - - which is what I believe the engineers point may have been. Other things develop skills and intelligences equally as well if not better than the "one way" we are tracking all students. Bell curves- they're everywhere, and we should embrace our student population with this understanding of diverse talents, needs, and futures.

Unregistered

03-31-2006, 01:10 PM

Every one needs education to make it in the world today, so pushing education is never a waste.

If a child has a disability with writing, or spelling YES push him/her for a
vocational degree instead.

Teachers should push education. They are our future, we need those students to be intelligent.

They are the next governers, presidents, and congressmen. Lets not give up on them.

Denise

Unregistered

04-01-2006, 01:57 AM

Real Live WI Teacher

04-05-2006, 03:32 AM

There is a big difference between educating a student to your fullest, only to find them opting out of college, and making the choice for them.

There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic. There is, however, something wrong with being a mechanic because your teacher decided that you should be one.

Preparing kids for college gives them all an opportunity to be successful.

Points well taken, but I think I'm not doing very well articulating a different point. Of course as teachers we would "push education" and the benefits of education in general, as well as post-secondary school.

But my angst is aimed more at the value-based decisions that promote college bound students and college-tracked students as the "best" or true purpose of education. I've never found a mission or goal statement for any school that read college itself is the aim. I believe you agree actually, in that it is part of the goal of providing opportunity to all. But often we get tracked mentally as teachers into measuring success and pinning hope on college potential and achievement.

When an AP class with 12 students stays, and a tech class with 40 goes, one type of outcome and student is valued over another --and I disagree with the premise and conclusion involved. This is actually the classic conflict of the liberal arts education vs the college/program in higher education, only the subject matter replaces theory and social values with the value of individuals and different talents / intelligences.

But I'm too tired to try to write this one out any more :o Hopefully it's gone from blinding fog to just blurry but visible!

Unregistered

04-05-2006, 09:18 PM

A math teacher should teach math as best as he can. A shop teacher should teach woodworking as best he can. If everyone did their best, every student would be well prepared to do either, and we wouldn't have to worry about this problem.

Unregistered

04-05-2006, 10:33 PM

I have been teaching a long time and have known students that had plenty of "smarts" but not the personality to deal with the college culture. I prepared them in the same way, but was sure to let them know college is an OPTION, not the end all be all.

I have also had students that were gifted in "non-college" ways. I had a kid who could barely read (even with all the help you can think of), but was so gifted with cars it was almost unbelievable. Remarkably enough with this reading problem, he was also quite adept at dealing with computers.

With some kids it is the BELIEFS about themselves that hold them back. They have learned to be "unsuccessful" from insensitive and unaware adults in their lives.

a GREAT teacher is about HEART. The 2nd greatest gift you can give a kid is the idea that they can do anything they are willing to work hard enough to do. It may never be easy, but most things are not impossible. (BTW, the greatest gift you can give a kid is knowing God created him or her and loves them unconditionally...but you cannot give them that at school)

Unregistered

04-24-2006, 08:57 PM

Before we can adequately hope to answer the question, "Should we encourage ALL HS students to go on to college?" we must first answer the question as to whether college is the right choice for everyone. Is college only for those who exibit a high level of academic talent; or is it an appropriate direction for everyone regardless of abilities. Should we also encourage ALL HS students to prepare for a tryout with a major league baseball team? How about the NFL? A good point was raised that it is not our decision to make. However; this confuses the point. We are NOT making the decision; we are supposed to be ADVISING. When we advise, is it not our duty to attempt to assess the demonstrated potential of the student and to help that student choose (NOTE: The student makes the choice.) an area of endeavor which will be best suited to that student's talents. Isn't this why guidance counselors have appitude tests and other tools to try to help in the difficult task of advising the student? So let us make an effort to discuss whether college is for everyone without prejudging the answer.
MY own opinion is that "ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL." We should try to help all of our students be aware of the talents they possess and to put those talents to their best possible use. IF encourageing all students to go to college does that; then we should encourage all students to go to college. However, if encouraging all students to go to college does NOT put the student's talents to the most productive use; then we should not encourage all students to go to college.

Unregistered

04-24-2006, 09:16 PM

A previous post stated: ... And "book smarts" aren't the only, or even the best, kind of smarts there are - - which is what I believe the engineers point may have been. Other things develop skills and intelligences equally as well if not better than the "one way" we are tracking all students. Bell curves- they're everywhere, and we should embrace our student population with this understanding of diverse talents, needs, and futures.
In support of that arguement I would like to point out that Dave Thomas, the founder of the Wendy's hamburger chain, was successful; and he had not even graduated high school, let alone attended college. There is much to be said for a strong work ethic coupled with talents other than "book learning."

Unregistered

04-25-2006, 12:49 AM

Interesting item I read on the Net:

Thomas, realizing that his success as a high school dropout might convince other teenagers to leave school (something he later admitted was a mistake), studied for and finally earned his GED in 1993.

There are a lot of successful basketball players that never did well in school as well, but I wouldn't want to make too much of their success.

I don't think anyone is saying that all students should go to college. But what I don't want to see happening is a slacking off of our high standards using the "they're not going to go to college anyway" excuse. We should teach our classes with a level of rigor such that all students are able to attend college if they wish.

Real Live WI Teacher

06-23-2006, 08:59 AM

Interesting item I read on the Net:

There are a lot of successful basketball players that never did well in school as well, but I wouldn't want to make too much of their success.

I don't think anyone is saying that all students should go to college. But what I don't want to see happening is a slacking off of our high standards using the "they're not going to go to college anyway" excuse. We should teach our classes with a level of rigor such that all students are able to attend college if they wish.

This sets up a relevant example- and feeds the general point I was trying rather lamely to make: what is to some an unacceptable example is to others an inspiration.

It's a faulty argument, really, to suggest that not graduating from high school is the point being encouraged or emphasized: it's the fact that success is possible regardless of high school difficulty or failure, and evident through such examples.

Really, this shows the sort of marginalization I was attempting to refer to-- it's unacceptable to attain success except through rigidly mandated means (i.e., high school hoops) that follow the prescribed route (college). Don't even publicize other ways to be ok, it's a bad example!!

A successful person who is a high school dropout such as Dave Thomas should be held up as a role model to follow for all students. Not the drop out part to emulate, but the self-determination and the individual responsibility and potential for achievement. But more importantly, he IS an inspiration for a chunk of the population regardless: those that have talents and abilities that didn't translate into success in school. There isn't ONE WAY to be successful and there shouldn't only be ONE WAY promoted in school. Dave Thomas shouldn't be the one way promoted, and neither should he be excluded.

There are students that are not developmentally, psychologically, functionally, neurologically, or socio-economically (or otherwise) prepared or equipped to master or succeed in the institutionalized educational setting.

Do we value them less? Do we sacrifice them at the alter of the minority? Do we do this to other minorities? 40% of high school students DO NOT ATTEND COLLEGE EVER and a small minority even GRADUATE (22%).

But look at the focus of most high schools, look at the resources and how they are allocated. Watch when budget cuts need to be made... what is supported, what is not? How many times is the justification for what is taught that it will be needed in college, or for entrance exams, etc.?

Is this either / or? Can we possibly encourage both, and not marginalize one in blind support of the other? I'm not advocating any diminished support for college bound students; rather I'm advocating for equitable support for those that are not immediately or potentially ever college-bound. Equity, fairness, educational purpose... those are the pillars of my point.

So Dave Thomas continues to be inspirational to the students who can identify with his "drop out" or difficulty in high school... or even their personal dismissal of it's relevance. Both because he went back to obtain his GED and could, as well as for his example of diversity and the reality that secondary pedagogical judgements and exclusions aren't absolute life outcome indicators: there's hope for success beyond the greatest machine of mass production.

Just as Dustin Hoffman, voted least likely to succeed in high school, proves.
Jim Carrey- high school drop out.
Michael Jordan- cut from his high school basketball team.
Van Braun (rocket scientist)- failed high school algebra.
Robert Frost- kicked out of school (for day dreaming).
Woody Allen, Tim Allen, Tom Cruise- poor students, learning disabilities
Famous Dave's owner- poor student, AD/HD (now refers to daydreaming as 'visioning')
Frank Lloyd Wright- punished often for poor functioning/ability in school

Etc...

These are not models held up to 'follow,' that's an absurd inference. They are models held up for those who relate to them, who will see hope reflected back to themselves, as opposed to exclusion, diminished value, failure, subjugation, and absolute outcomes.

If the fear is that students will use them as an excuse (Jim Carrey dropped out, I can too!) then my response is that those students will find excuses regardless, and can just as easily point blame and meaningless transference in a myriad of places. Excuse making isn't a product of available material, and the means of the excuse isn't the cause.

Way too much said, but a good rant!

Tom Tuttle

06-23-2006, 11:46 AM

Real Live WI:

Once again, I find myself applauding your well thought out ideas. Evidently, you are one of those rare creatures, a teacher who isn't afraid to think for himself.

I thought you might enjoy this web site, about nobel prize winners who did not do well in school.

http://learninfreedom.org/Nobel_hates_school.html

I would like to point out that the examples you gave of people who succeeded without high school diplomas are the exceptions that prove the rule. For every Jim Carrey or Dave Thomas there are millions of underpaid, undervalued, unskilled drop outs swelling the ranks of welfare and criminal systems.

Every time I ask students to contemplate their futures, I get youngsters talking about show biz and pro sports. When I ask them to consider what obstacles they might face, they talk about what it might be like to deal with all that money and so many adoring fans!

These sorts of unrealistic expectations are designed into our system. What a horrible waste of young lives! We hold up to our young sports and media stars. The people they are led to admire don't even need to be able to read or write, let alone possess a practical degree of education.

As a teacher who has worked all his life among the underclasses, I believe that the main force that makes poverty a generational affair is these false expectations. From the lottery to American Idol to Pro Basketball, these youngsters are led from faint hope to false promise. The chances of a child from the ghetto or barrio finding success without a solid education are so slim as to be non existent. Instead, these glitzy Hollywood success stories are the bait that lures the masses to the worst of fates - wasted lives.

Unregistered

07-09-2006, 12:20 AM

Shouldn't we point some of our students to vocational careers, instead of pushing college. I look around at some HS kids and realize that they will NEVER make it at college. Wouldn't they be better off by learning how to repair an engine, rather than reading "Beowulf". Discuss.
I think so. A good technician in any field as long as he or she is not a drunk or drug addict can make more money faster in life than almost all white collar middle managers with less stress. If a person is smart he or she is smart no matter what job. I am not a total idiot I am about to complete my accounting degree. After looking at the real world, construction workers make far more than an accountant and any idiot can complete a tax form or run his own business.

MIldred

07-09-2006, 02:13 PM

that the main force that makes poverty a generational affair is these false expectations. From the lottery to American Idol to Pro Basketball, these youngsters are led from faint hope to false promise. The chances of a child from the ghetto or barrio finding success without a solid education are so slim as to be non existent. Instead, these glitzy Hollywood success stories are the bait that lures the masses to the worst of fates - wasted lives.

I've been thinking about this post and I think Tom makes an excellent point. A few years back. when the feminist movement was making news, women were questioning the fairy tales that have the princess waiting for her prince to come along and make her life a dream come true. These myths that we teach our children are invisible but very, very powerful. Real Live WI teacher,who is a thougtful and intelligent writer, made a cogent plea on behalf of the myths that we feed our underclass kids. Like myself, he probably hadn't even thought about how destructive these "Cinderella stories" can be. Teachers should think over and discuss the messages we send to our students.

Unregistered

07-11-2006, 10:23 PM

I think so. A good technician in any field as long as he or she is not a drunk or drug addict can make more money faster in life than almost all white collar middle managers with less stress. If a person is smart he or she is smart no matter what job. I am not a total idiot I am about to complete my accounting degree. After looking at the real world, construction workers make far more than an accountant and any idiot can complete a tax form or run his own business.

When I get my hair cut, I want the best hairdresser. I left a hairdresser who probably went into it because she thought it was the only option, not necessarily because she really wanted to do it. After my 5th crooked hair cut, I decided not to go back even tho she does a good job on my dh. I mean, HOW can you screw up long hair?? Anyway, I went a few months without a hair cut until I ran into an old friend by accident, one who had cut my hair years ago and then moved. She had set up shop again and does a fabulous job. SHE had dropped out of college because after a year she realised all she had ever wanted was to cut hair.

How many kids are being turned from their real dreams because of these elitist expectations about what constitutes success? If you love cutting hair and are being told that only losers cut hair, then a talented hairdresser is lost.

Or if you live to work on your car on weekends and your parents and teachers pressure you to go to college and become an engineer? Twenty years later you realise that you never really liked dressing in a monkey suit and working in an office and that you never put your heart and soul into your job because what you really wanted was to set up your own shop and spend your time puttering, restoring a classic car. Heck, you might have made a living maintaining race cars or other peoples' classic cars. Instead, you had marginal success working long hours at something that didn't really turn you on. The point I'm making? We have such a narrow definition of what consitutes success and it always involves college. Most college degrees are just a piece of paper that qualify you for some middle class job, but not a high degree of specialised training in a particular skill.

Just something to think about. Maybe we should just be providing the best education possible and watching for our students interests and strengths. Then we can advise them on these things because they may not realise these talents or may dismiss their interests as a pipe dream.

A student once wrote in her journal that she wanted to go to a local college because she didn't want to leave her family. She wanted to get a two year degree. She went on to describe her ideal job: she would open a little school at home for little kids where she would give them little projects and prepare snacks. It hit me suddenly: she was describing in home daycare. She loves kids, so I would love to leave my kids with someone like her. There's a local two year college with an early childhood degree and a long waiting list for quality daycare. I wasn't shy about sharing this with her and her eyes lit up. All we have to do is keep our eyes and strive to discover our students' strengths and weaknesses.

Carol

Unregistered

07-12-2006, 10:26 AM

You Say: There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic. There is, however, something wrong with being a mechanic because your teacher decided that you should be one.

Preparing kids for college gives them all an opportunity to be successful.

If there is nothing WRONG with being a mechanic, then there should be nothing wrong with preparing a student for a career in which they can be successful. There are many mechanics who have more financial success than people with college degrees. Heck, my stylist makes more money than me, and she owns her own business. How many of us can say that. You could argue that as a teacher you are "DECIDING" for them to go to college, when that may not be the best place for them. We need to remember that vocational programs are not inherently evil. The evil stemmed from teachers and administrators tracking minorities and people of los SES backgrounds without determing whether or not they could or wanted to go to college. The fault lied not in the programs, but in its overseers.

I agree with other posts that we are lacking in skilled labor positions. Everyone CAN'T have a college degree.

Unregistered

07-13-2006, 12:54 PM

No one said that vocational programs are evil. But I would rather have a teacher prepare all kids for college, with the understanding that some students will opt out and enter non-professional careers.

So I am not suggesting that schools drop wood shop, but rather that we should never use the excuse that "some students are not cut out for college" to withhold academic content from them.

Unregistered

07-14-2006, 06:27 PM

We as teachers need to understand that not all students will go to college but we do need to prepare them, to the best of our ability, the abilityto handle what they will face after high school.
We need to prepare them for life, how to handle problems and how to think! When they leave high school they will take a career path or academic path and both of these paths require thinking and knowing how to deal with stress and pressure.
We can do that in the classroom every day! How we act, how we teach, how we lead by example is critical to our students.
Just my thinking

Unregistered

08-06-2006, 09:02 PM

My students at all senior levels read Shakespeare, Chaucer, and a Beowulf translation. They are inner city kids and many won't go to college, but I tell them they are entitled to the same education that students in the wealthy suburbs get. Their senior year may be the last time they ever read Shakespeare, so they should take advantage of it. Should they go to college, they will be acquainted with the classics.

Unregistered

11-26-2006, 11:38 AM

I teach special education students: of my class of 10, I have 2 that read above at third grade level of higher. They do not understand that if writing an organized paragraph is challenging, then perhaps college would not be for them. That is not to say that some of my students don't make it to college, but they are students whose reading comprehension is at 8th grade level or above, and students who liked to write. I do my best to encourage them in all pursuits. I have 2 now who would like to attend college, and it could happen for these two.

Deciding whether to go for a HS diploma vs certificate is an issue in my classroom. I have always encouraged the diploma, b/c even though they may struggle with reading, if there are not barrier tests inplace to make earning a diploma impossible, then at least they will earn more w/ that than without. With this class, though, I have begun to stress that a certificate my be a better route for some b/c it allows them to recieve educational services longer, and to be better prepared for the world of work.

Personally I doubt the statement that the department of guidance made at the assembly I attended when my own childdren were in highschool: that there is a college out there that will match the needs of each child. if you know ofone that will work for my students, please let me know. Full performance IQ scores for some are less than half of what the average college bound student possesses.

It saddens me that the prognosis for my students isn't very bright. They are generally great kids who grew up in awful environments. I love these kids,
they work so hard just to read, and to master basic math skills. Too many of them end up incarserated or worse.

Unregistered

11-26-2006, 12:24 PM

I am a special education classroom teacher and in my years of teaching I have come to this conclusion; we must open all doors of opportunity not just the ones that suit us. Not all bright kids belong in a university or college setting.
My sister who was certified a genius couldn't make it in regular college because this is not where her genius was located. It was more in the artistic realm and although rather good at the academic subjects she would fail because these courses were not her. She is now on her way to completing nail tech school. They have offered her a job upon completion at several salons, have asked her to come aboard and upon graduation, to teach at the school she presently attends. Why because this is her love and she goes beyond the pail learning about the skin and different ailments that might affect her clients so she could properly service them and she also knows when to suggest they go to a doctor. In college she would recieve A's in her artistic expression type classes, academics she would get lower grades although her professors who would read her papers that required thought and creativity would wonder aloud in their written comments how it was she could have such perception, knowledge and creativty in various subject matter yet would do miserably in the overall subjects matter. I wonder hw frustrated we would be at such a student?

Another example. I had a student who decided that my radio wasn't working right ( he was diagnosed adhd and had a hard time with reading etc) after getting my negative answer to taking the radio home and "fixing it" he snuck it out of the class room and bought me a "new " radio back in its old casing so to speak. My radio has never worked better and his favorite station sounded as if he had it hooked up to all tyoes of speakers. Should he be in college? No. The poor child wouldn't do well. However, considering he was taking a loose his mothers car in 7th grade while she was asleep to figure out what in the world was making "that sound" and then putting it back together again and it never made that sound again,(she said it was like a new car thereafter althoug he did recieve a punishment) should this kid who reads at a 1st grade level be pushed into college or into a trade school or the military where his skill will be recognized?

Speaking of the military, what about my one student who got tired of seeing our wonderful high school being messed over by students and a seemingly ineffective frustrated security force? He gave me a paper with a crude flow chart for security and a means of addressing certain behaviors . I gave it to the dean of students just as a " look at this" factor. The dean may have looked at it but a new security chief came on board found the paper thought it was good and implemented it. IT WORKED! As usual lack of follow through ruined it and it was trashed. Wouldn't this guy work well on a military or civilian force? Should he be inticed to go to college ? My opinion yes. However, since this s kid has all types of LD issues and a behavior issues I doubt he would make it pass mid semster. However, someone in these fields would recognize his talent right off and would hone these skills into somthing great. I tell you the military could use him in Iraq and Afghanastan so our troops can go home.

On the other hand I have had students who have shown other skills and one of my babies is on a four year scholarship and is studying to become a teacher dispite the learning challenges she has to cope with on a daily basis.
Open doors teachers don't close any of them because of your fears and predjudices. It's hard because we love our chicks (ok some of them we love others we tolerate, lol) but if we release them to find the door for their future they will soar.

Unregistered

11-26-2006, 05:50 PM

Maybe we are all barking up the wrong tree here. Whenever we try to solve problems in education, we start with teachers, reforming, reeducating, or in some way insinuating that it's their fault for the failure of our students.

I teach in a school with over three quarters of the students reading at elementary school level. What difference does it make what I say to these students about higher learning when they can't even read a textbook or a web page?

If a student cannot read, that is not the teacher's fault. Instead we should be frank with the student and tell them what happens to illiterate people in a sophisticated global market. If they choose to remain illiterate, and many belong to a subculture that defends ignorance, how can we possibly affect their future?

Mr. H

11-27-2006, 05:36 PM

The way things are going with the competition for jobs even jobs which were formerly non-collegiate, a college grad is going to get it over a HS grad with the same trade school training. We need to help these kids in the competitive world they are being thrown into. Who knows YOU might be the only encouragement they get. ANYONE can succeed in college and that success will translate to the world in the form of careers and work ethic. That is the message we should be spreading.

Unregistered

11-27-2006, 08:06 PM

I feel it's always good to motivate children towards vocational education rather than motivating all to join college. The kind of resources, practical knowledge & Industrial exposure makes a lot of difference to the kids in our nation from around the corners of the world. But if a child wishes to join a college and if he can it's more than welcome to help him achieve his goals. If possible a teacher sholud always try to inculcate some enthusiasm and research oriented perspective in the minds of every student.Because uniqueness and progress of any nation lies in the new inventions and innovations in Science, Technology and all other fields.

Unregistered

11-30-2006, 01:41 PM

no we should not persuade all students to go to college. There is no need for the majority of Americans to be pencil-pushers. I am glad that I got my college education, but you have to realize that what is best for you, is not best for other people. Can you not see that in the future, electricians and plumbers and stone masons will make just as much money as big-city lawyers/doctors? Life requires that certain blue-collar jobs are required and nothing is wrong with those professions. Nothing is wrong with an honest living.

If my students are not really interested in their bookwork, then i ask them what they are interested in. I tell them to learn a trade and own it. To be really specific with a skill they can learn, like repairing import transmissions, etc. and be the best they can be. Then they can be their own boss, they can set their own hours, they won't be confined to an office cubicle, etc.

You people that have something against blue-collar jobs and think college is the best answer for everyone are just arrogant.

Paul R. from Boston

12-03-2006, 11:13 AM

So far, education, including university, is depicted here as vocational in purpose. I always thought the rationale behind free public education was to prepare children to participate fully in a government which recognizes the people as the highest human authority. Ask yourselves how many of your students are being prepard for that task. Or are we simply following the dictates of our (new?) corporate masters and preparing the children to be consumers and workers who are motivated by material gain and the illusion of security rather than by the noble pursuits of democracy.

Let the children and their parents dictate their vocational desires. We teachers should get our own priorities straight.

Mary Knight

12-03-2006, 11:24 AM

I am a career counselor. I feel that too many kids come to me later in life who were "taught for college" and not for their ability or passion. In other words, teach these kids to actually think for themselves what types of things they love, what career clusters that goes with, and how to maximize their education to evolve that way. There is no one right answer for each and every child, and when you consider that the national average for adults is to change complete careers 5 times in their lives, how can we say that students can choose college over trade school or the military without better insight into themselves and allowing the choices to make them who they actually choose to become.

It's easy to want a one size fits all educational system, but believe me when I say that when I get them as adults, it just doesn't work. I have many adults that want to get into, say, construction trades who would have benefitted greatly from vo-tech construction trades classes who were denied because their high school felt that they had to have more civics or biology and therefore vo-tech was phased out. Now, they have no way short of going back to vo-tech as older adults to gain such skills when they'd have been available (and FREE) if they'd been allowed access to them as high school students.

Several of you say you want to prepare each student for college and that way you haven't made the choice for them, but believe me, with the adults I work with--you already HAVE made that choice by not allowing them to be who they really are and get what they want. With proper guidance into career clustering, this is possible in high school.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water here. It's not a one size fits all educational system, just like it's not a one size fits all world.

Unregistered

12-11-2006, 08:53 PM

I couldn’t agree more about the over importance of university. High school students have the best idea of where they want to go, not the teachers. They should have the option to take electives that will help them and that interest them. Electives are supposed to be their choice – aren’t they?? Stimulating a student’s interest in music for example, is a great use of the elective class. They may go on to university, they may not. Meanwhile, teachers should provide students with a variety of ideas for options for the post-high school transition.

Chocolate_New_Orleans

12-11-2006, 09:29 PM

not everyone can be college educated, because their is always a demand for burger flipper managers. And if everyone went to college, there wouldn't be enough 'college educated jobs to offer everyone, and you would find people flipping burgers with a BA or BS degree.

Unregistered

12-12-2006, 01:03 AM

I disagree with the last posters. The decision about whether or not a student goes to college should be left up to the student and his parents, with guidance from the counselor. As teachers, we should teach our classes as rigorously as the content demands, otherwise we can fall into the trap of saying "my students are not cut out for college, so why try?"

Chemfemme

12-13-2006, 07:32 PM

If it's alreadybeen mentioned, I missed it, but what about the financial aspect of "everybody goes to 4 years of college"? I have MANY students who could "make it" in college academically, but they won't have the top grades to get big scholarships. So 4 years of college is financially out of the question for them. They could, however, probably swing a 1-2 year technical program at a reasonably priced community college or technical school. If they came out of high school prepared for that, they would be way ahead of the game. Industry is looking for people with technical skills, and these kids could make a good living -- many companies will even pay for them to get the rest of their 4-yr degree if they are good employees. Vo-tech training in hs would give them a head start toward getting on with those companies in the first place. A four-year college degree is not practical for everyone. That's why I think a wide range of vo-tech classes should be available to them in hs.

Mr. H

12-14-2006, 04:59 PM

Ok, so not all kids are going to go to college, what is the percentage, something like 44% of students start college but of those only 20% graduate with a four-year degree? Then we have to factor in the classes we teach. I teach French, most of my students are College Prep. and I encourage them as much as possible to go on to college. I would at least encourage all students to get a two-year degree at a JR college. That should get them a higher pay rate in whatever field they chose to specialize.

Unregistered

12-17-2006, 05:41 PM

In high school settings, I think it is extremely realistic to prepare some students for vocations. Some students will honestly tell you they do not want to go to college. The schools lack of acknowledgement of the importance of vocational training creates a whole in the labor force. My husband works as an automotive technician and I will graduate college in one semester. After I graduate he will make almost twice as much as me without debt from student loans.

Unregistered

12-18-2006, 11:56 AM

Educators should be spending more time emphasizing the many other routes to success and financial security other than a 4 year College degree. Too many young people are of the impression that a college degree is the answer to better paying, more rewarding careers. Nothing could be further from the truth as evidenced by a glut of college graduates who lack the practical skills needed to survive in this world as they labor in their corporate cubicles.

Since when has Vocational education become a dirty word? Tell that to the carpenters, plumbers, electricians, mechanics whose salaries far exceed their college educated contemporaries.

It is shameful to push students toward a goal they do not desire and may or may not ever succeed at attaining, when those very same students may have skills and talents best developed outside the academic arena.

Unregistered

12-18-2006, 12:05 PM

I am an elementary teacher with a Masters' degree. My husband is an electrician, and makes three times what I make, annual gross income. He is a high school graduate, and began an apprentice job with an electric company right out of high school, forty years ago. This is not unusual by any means.

Unregistered

12-30-2006, 06:06 PM

Money does not dictate value.

Value depends on the person.

I'm currently in University right now. If while I was in high school, there was a path for me to be a millionaire but the tradeoff was that I will never be allowed any postsecondary academic education, I would easily decline. This is because I am interested in many areas and just enjoys learning things. I like the university atmosphere, and I personally think it's something special that everyone should experience at least once.

But not everyone has the same values I have. So you might say just let them go off wherever they want depending on their values.

There's another problem though... This is a fine idea, if everyone's values are truly what they value. There are people who are really knowledgeable with the field they want to go into and know everything their is about their perspective future, but I doubt such people represent the majority of high school graduates. There are people who never realized the value and had the appreciation for the idea of education, and then complain that they don't want anymore school. There are people who are going into a field due to outside influences like parents or peers. If the goal is to try to get every student to make his or her own decisions and make them well, then they need to be informed what they are actually deciding on and what each choice is really like.

This is why I think what high school teachers should do is to accurately show the students what the job fields look like as much as possible. Teaching a physics course? Take a field trip and analyze a local bridge or building. Teaching English? show the students what working for a newspaper is like, or how the publishing process for a novel is like. Teaching business or economics? Give recent case studies. Teaching politics? Have them follow the media throughout the semester. Of course, I have no clue how much merits are in these suggestions (as I'm not a teacher), but I know these would be things that I would've liked back when I was in high school.

Unregistered

01-01-2007, 01:03 PM

I am recently employed at a vocational high school and let me tell you the things that I see out number a lot of the classroom values that kids learn in a traditional high school. Kids from this school go on to college if they choose but they also graduate with some abilities that an average kid does not have which might allow them to work for a couple of years and make some money to pay for college. I was at a private school before this and the push was college. So much so that the kids left without a clue of how to do things for themselves. All they cared about was getting into the best college and in the end most had no reason for that college. I went to a top school for college and now being a teacher I don't make the most money and wish that I went a different route becuase I enjoy my job but hate the bills and loans from going to college. As teachers we need to prepare the students for what is outside the walls of the school and show them all the options that are out there for them!

jamiecmu03

02-11-2007, 03:04 PM

I teach a career preparation course at my high school. It is part of a four-year program they go through, exploring their options for life after they graduate. Does everyone go to college? At our school, that is a big no. Only 30-35% of our students go on to college. The rest go into trade schools, the military, or straight into the work world. I believe the program we run is completely beneficial to our students, as it gives them the chance to explore their futures without cost to them. I personally wasted two years of college exploring and am now paying for it, literally, in student loans. I ended up doing what I knew I should, teaching, but I wanted to explore what I hadn't had the chance to. Not only do we do the career preparation classes, we have access to a highly skilled tech center which we send almost 50% of our juniors and seniors to daily. Many of our students walk out of there with certifications and licences that would normally take up time after high school, but now they can walk out and begin to work. Is everyone made to go to college? No. It is part of our responsibility as teachers to help our students realize their futures, or at least get a feel for them, before they leave our buildings.

brandt24

02-15-2007, 07:26 PM

In response to the posting as to whether or not to encourage all kids to attend college, I say yes. I agree that, looking around my own classroom, many of my students would not cut in college, but I do not feel that this door should be shut to them based on their performance/attitude/behaviour as a high school teenager. As educators we need to push our students to do their very best and not limit thier opportunities based upon who they are at 16. I know far too many people who blew off high school, only to excel in college and become succesful in their chosen careers. For some it's the structure, for others it's a combination of social pressures, family responsibilities, immaturity, etc. All in all, students need to see beyond thier own self imposed limitations and it is our jobs as pedagogues to see that this happens.

Unregistered

02-17-2007, 11:26 PM

Isn't the purpose of an education to help students think for themselves? If a student chooses to work in a vocational field, he or she is using their education by thinking and planning for a successful future.

Should they be held back by the assumption that college is the only acceptable path to success? While I feel that college is undoubtedly necessary, if a student chooses otherwise I need to respect that. I would much rather have a student who chooses a career in welding and succeeds than a student who goes to college and becomes an unpaid philosopher.

Unregistered

02-18-2007, 03:23 AM

I think we're overlooking one very important part of this question. We're talking like college is the ultimate goal and the pinicle of an education. Let's face it, college is becoming a joke. I should know, I'm a senior right now at a major college in the midwest.

I'll be honest with you, I'm no genious, however, I have bull$h1tted my way to a 3.6 GPA and tons of Deans list selections. It definitely isn't what you know, it's how much BS and kiss a$$ you can put behind what you do know. More proof needed? Ok, I graduated high school with a C average. How's that for debunking the theory of college as the ultimate test of one's knowledge?

I'm sure someone is going to say that I was just bored as a student in high school, and that I just needed a challenge. Or someone is going to say that I'm an aboration and not the norm. Point taken, but fact of the matter is that all my friends are in the same situation. One friend goes to Ohio State, one goes to Boston College, one goes to UNLV and another goes to Kent State. We were all average to poor students and got to college and totally blew the doors of the place. The only thing we have in common is that we're all personable, outgoing people who could sell fire to the devil or ice cubes to an eskimo. That's it. Nothing special here.

My point is that college is becoming so corporate that it's possible to pay your money, schmooze the professors and get your degree with honors. Face it, college has been cheapened. My degree might as well be written on sheepskin toilet paper if this is all it takes to be considered smart in this country. I don't advocate talking kids into menial paying jobs, but at the rate college is going, even high paying, degree requiring jobs are going to be paying as much as some menial jobs nowadays. Especially if the republicans get thier way of raising minimum wage to $7.15 an hour. Hell, then even whopper floppers will be making good money (the term good is a relative term...obviously).

Unregistered

04-26-2007, 04:58 PM

I am a Counselor/Teacher. I have invited a rep from Job Corp. This is a fantastic program for kids who have not graduated or received their GED. From age 16-24 a person can qualify. It will train you for a job in a trade school and pay for it. You will be housed, fed, and received health insurance. You will also receive a monthly stipend. Child care benefits are also available. The person will also be helped in finding a trade he or she likes.
It can be learning Pharmacy Tech to a Culinary School. It will also cover all things in between. I would suggest looking into Job Corp online and going from their. I would rather pay for this than Welfare which can be unproductive.

Unregistered

09-18-2008, 05:56 PM

All these posts are interesting and make good points, however they all tend to assume kids need a resume to get hired. I've got an MBA and own my own company helping people buy and sell companies. I see that most of the small business owners I deal with went to work instead of college and now they are the owners. Imagine that - a high school grad looking to hire a college grad.

In a democratic, capitalistic society, I wish our high school education systems were teaching our kids how to grow up, work, and make it on their own creating jobs instead of constantly looking for jobs.

minerva.688

03-16-2009, 12:12 PM

In my opinion, college education is important for getting good jobs nowadays. It's true that people who set up their own business are often not college-educated but not everyone has the capabilities and will to do so. It's not that hard to get an college degree and you can even study online while you're working in a normal day job. There is a good resource on online colleges (http://www.onlinecolleges.net) where everybody can find something that suits his interests and abilities.

Chocolate_New_Orleans

03-16-2009, 12:18 PM

I can't remember if I posted this or not,

but I don't think the country needs 100% college educated 25 y.o.'s The economy NEEDS trashmen, janitors, plumbers (Heck, plumbers make more than me), fast food managers, etc

Do I want MY kid to have a college edu....? Yes
Do I want EVERY kid to have a college edu...? Hails NO

Unregistered

03-16-2009, 03:42 PM

Origonally all highschools were private 3 year college prep institutions. They became public as a way to decrease the number of people competing for jobs. During the Great Depression a 12th year was added to further decrease the working population. Unfortunately, the quality of the students went down when EVERYBODY went to highschool so there was an initial rise in the drop-out rate (kids who could or would not do the work). To lower the drop-out rate highschools lowered their standards.

It worries me that more and more people want the govenment to pay for college admission. We have already seen what a disaster it was to subsidize highschool (does a trashman really need to know highschool algebra?). I predict that college will become just as watered down and ineffective as the average highschool.

We have been the victim of good intentions. At one point in time there was a sense that the poor could pull themselves up by their boot straps and providing them with an education was a legitimate helping hand. Now the focus has shifted. It is seen as the school's responsibility to ensure that everyone receives (not earns) academic success. Now the only one tugging on boots is the government-on its knees conscientiously placing shoes on a population that has abandoned any sense of personal responsibility.